Episode 28: Luci Swindoll: Life with Luci
Transcript
Patsy: Hi, I’m Patsy Clairmont, and I’m a Boomer.
Andrew: And I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m a Millennial.
Patsy: And you are listening to Bridges.
Andrew: Spiritual Connections Through Generational Conversations
Patsy: Season Two of Bridges is brought to you by Food for the Hungry.
Andrew: Meeting the physical and spiritual needs of people all around the world for over 50 years.
Today, we are talking about a friend of many of yours through the Women Of Faith platform and a woman who also brought great value and depth to Patsy’s life, and that is Luci Swindoll. She, of course, went on to the other side to be with her greatest companion, Jesus, just about a year ago, and we thought it would be fun to celebrate her life by going down the list of some of the lessons that Patsy learned through her friendship with Luci and, I think, lessons that can extend to all of us.
Patsy: Friendship is so important in our lives, relationships are, because God created us to be in relationships with him and to be in relationship with others. That’s not always easy, but here’s a friend who taught me so much about quality living.
Not only do we have family, we have friends, and friends often feel like family if they have taken that step across the bridge of not knowing to being in a space together where you’re well known. And someone who crossed that bridge and I got to meet her in the middle was my friend Luci Swindoll, and the bridge I want to tell you about that really represents a memory for me — not that I’ve been on the bridge, but listen. This is in Tanzania. Between Tanzania and Mozambique, there is a bridge, and it’s called a Unity Bridge. I feel like that’s what happened when I got to work with Luci. There was that opportunity for us to know each other for a sense of unity, not only as teammates but as friends.
There’s a river that runs under that bridge, and what happens with the bridge — and I love this, Andrew — is it’s a permission slip to come and be a part of my space.
Andrew: Ah, we need permission slips.
Patsy: We do. You might see someone you really would like to know, and you find out that that isn’t something that’s available. But when a bridge is built, you feel like you’ve been given the opportunity for unity with that individual, and that’s how it was for Luci and myself.
I first met her through the bridge of her work, through a book that she had written, Wide My World, Narrow My Bed, because she was a single woman, and she wrote about the things that had made her life have even more depth and quality to it through great literature and great music. She loved poetry.
Luci had a wide heart. She loved a lot of things. She really made an imprint and an impact on my own life, and she helped me to see that I wanted to open myself up more to what was available and not be so restrictive or limiting.
Andrew: What was it about Luci’s personality and your interactions with her and your friendship with her that made you feel safe enough? Y’all obviously were different personalities. Of course, I’ve seen y’all interact on stage, met Luci a couple times when I accompanied you to Women Of Faith backstage.
People gather around Luci. She’s gregarious and a boisterous personality and kind of larger than life, and also a broad woman and you’re kind of this little leprechaun. So you look different, you interact different. What about Luci made you feel safe to stretch yourself?
Patsy: Because she was so embracing of everyone, and also, to my benefit, she liked miniature’s, so I kind of fit right in on the shelf of her life, so to speak.
Andrew: An easy part of her collection.
Patsy: She was magnetic. There was a charisma about her that was hard to resist, and I always got a kick out of it. Anytime the visiting singers or speakers, or just visitors period, brought their husbands with them, they invariably would make this statement. They would turn to their wives and say, “I love you, but if anything ever happens to you, I’m marrying Luci,” because she made you laugh and she made you think. And when you laugh, you relax, you’re not defensive, and you’re appreciative because they’ve given you the gift of laughter, which has lightened up your inside world.
Luci had that ability to make you laugh and to challenge you in your life that you might really experience things you never did before, because in Tanzania, I crash landed, which is the way hot air balloons land. It’s a crash. I crash landed in Tanzania because of Luci. She paid for the whole team to have the opportunity to do a hot air balloon ride over the Maasai Mara in Africa.
“I crash landed in Tanzania because of Luci.”
Andrew: And that’s not your dream.
Patsy: That was not my dream. That was Luci’s generosity. But I did it, and I’ll never be sorry for the stored memory that I have when I looked over the edge of the basket and down below me were stampeding elephants.
And then I remembered the moment I said to the gentleman who was guiding the balloon through the air, I said to him, “What is your name?” He said, “My name is Moses.” I said, “Honey, you didn’t even make it to the Promised Land, and you’re guiding my balloon? You’re the one that’s gonna land this?” He said, “Oh, we don’t land. We crash.” And I said, “That’s not funny, Moses. That’s not even a little bit funny.” “No,” he said, “I’m not trying to be funny. There’s no breaks on this thing, so we don’t know exactly when it will hit the earth or how that impact will affect us, so you just need to hang on.” I said, “You’re telling me this now?”
Andrew: You’re up in the air at this point, right?
Patsy: Yes, over stampeding elephants. I don’t want to hear this.
But we crash landed in Tanzania, and we bounced. Oh my goodness, we not only bounced, we were dragged as the balloon began to deflate. Then we had to crawl out of the basket. It was an event, let me tell you. At least in my category, it was an event.
And when we got out, there was a truck very close by that had been waiting for our crash landing because they had set up tables, and they were about to fix our breakfast out in the wilderness with the wild animals.
Andrew: Wow. Now, you know me. That sounds like paradise.
Patsy: And you know me. I was like, Get me out of here.
I saw this hyena, and they are so ugly, and he was not that far, and I thought, Do not come in this circle of people. And I saw in the distance a herd of animals with big horns, like a bull kind of. I said, “Now, what if they want my breakfast? Is the smell of this food tempting them at all?”
But it was a wonderful experience. I’m grateful for Luci’s generosity and her courageous heart that always was cheering the rest of us on, especially if she knew it was something we were hesitant about.
Andrew: Isn’t that interesting? What that says to me and y’all’s friendship and the beauty that can be inside the interaction of two people in a friendship is challenge, is the offering of courage, is that permission slip you’re talking about.
She was observant enough of you as a friend. It wasn’t just that, I want to go on a hot air balloon ride, and I want my friends to come with me. I know that this may grow Patsy in some way.
I mean, I think there’s some mischievousness about Luci that she seemed to like to play a prank and trick out a little bit to her friends, but I think there was purpose in her generosity and her invitation to that space that maybe you weren’t most comfortable with.
“The beauty that can be inside the interaction of two people in a friendship is challenge.”
Patsy: We went to the Holy Land together, and we were on a tour with her brother, Chuck. We were on planes and buses and cabs. I mean, you really traverse when you go over there through the different places that you visit. Some were too dangerous for us to go into, and other places we were quickly welcomed.
And so we had a great time, but at one point, they said, “We’re going to Masada.” I didn’t know Masada was a mountain. I just was not educated on what was over there that was worth time and effort, and so I was shocked when I got there and looked at those mountains. I thought, Take me home, because they pointed to the top and said, “We’re going up there.” And I began to plot how I could get out of this. The gal said, “Do not lose your ticket. It cannot be replaced. If you lose it, you can’t go up in the tram.”
Well, see, the word tram was spelled f-e-a-r, and I thought, I am not going in a tram up on a mountain.
Andrew: Because if I remember right, these were like cable cars, right?
Patsy: That’s right, yep.
Andrew: I’ve been there too.
Patsy: It was a dangling thing on a thread.
Andrew: Going up to King Herod’s old place, of all things, someone we don’t want to meet.
Patsy: No. No, I’m not going.
So I conveniently lose my ticket when it’s time to get in the tram, and I said, “It’s alright.” I waved to my friends inside the tram. “It’s okay. I’ll be down here. I’ll wait for you.” And one of my friends leapt off the little box and ran in to where we had been in the ladies room and found where I had thrown the ticket and brought it back out. “I found it,” she said. “Here it is.”
Luci was standing against one of the windows of the tram, and she looked at me and then she waved her hand. She said, “Patsy, come stand by me.” And Luci was a woman that had a lot of height and a lot of love, and she just put her arm around me, drew me into the safety of her courage, and let me ride off of her ability to handle it because I didn’t feel like I could do this big thing. And to feel like you don’t have to do it alone because a friend has come alongside of you, that really helps.
Andrew: And coming up, we’ve got a story straight from the lips of Luci. You don’t want to miss it, so stay tuned.
Patsy: We’ll be right back.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Patsy: Food for the Hungry is giving us a wonderful way to take God’s Word and invest it all over the world, and we get to be a part of it. It will deepen their spiritual experience, it will help in literacy issues, it will bring light into dark places, and we can do it all if you will help us help others. And how do we do that, Andrew?
Andrew: It’s pretty simple. Our friends at Food for the Hungry are giving us a unique opportunity to purchase Bibles for folks all around the world, and here’s the cool part, Patsy. It’s translated, ready to go, ready to read in their language, and that’s a rare thing around the world.
So go to fh.org/briges, and for $12 a pop, you can buy as many Bibles as you want to help our friends know God better and read better across the world. Go to fh.org/bridges.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Patsy: “Shout out praises to the Lord, all the earth. Worship the Lord with joy. Enter his presence with joyful singing. Acknowledge that the Lord is God. He made us and we belong to him; we are his people and the sheep of his pasture.”
That’s Psalms 100, verses 1 and 2, from my own Abide Bible.
When we abide him and his words abide in us, everything changes — our perspective, our attitude. So it anchors my soul when I go to the Word of God. It teaches me better behavior than I’d have otherwise because I can really suffer from a case of the attitude. So this helps to keep me in a better place with a sweeter attitude in a difficult world.
The Abide Bible comes in two different versions. I don’t know if you have a favorite, but there’s a New King James and then there’s the New English translation. It is set up so you can journal, so those of you who love to do notes on the side, this paper is set up to receive those notes. It also gives you insights on the edges of the pages that help us to read the Word in a more meaningful way, to meditate in such a way that it begins to sink into the very depths of our being, to pray the verse so that we get better claim on the truth in it, and then to contemplate so that as we move forward the Word goes with us.
So that is what I want to tell you about the Abide Bible because I believe in passing on the Good News.
Andrew: We have been talking about the Abide Bible throughout the entire Bridges broadcast, but one new way to highlight your experience of reading the Bible is a free 21-day video devotional series called Experience Abide. It’s an incredible way for people to experience the Bible themselves and adds a free benefit to your own spiritual growth, and so we are excited to offer not only the Bible but this free Experience Abide devotional series straight from bridgesshow.com/abide.
Luci: Chuck, my younger brother, maybe some of you know him from Insight For Living. He is my pastor, friend, wonderful man. I call him Babe because he was the baby in the family.
I remember when I was about 12 and he was about 10, we were on the back porch, and so I don’t know what gave me this brilliant idea, but I said to him, “Babe, would you like me to teach you to smoke?” He said, “Why?” I said, “Well, you never know when you might need it.” Being a Christian and all, you never know when you might need it. He said, “Well, how would I do it?” And I said, “Well, see that post out there with the cedar bark on it?” And he said, “Yeah?” And I said, “Well, go get me the bark, and I’ll go in and get the paper in which to wrap it, and then you can smoke that.” He said, “You promise me it won’t hurt?” And I said, “No. But you must promise me also, Babe, that you’re not going to tell mother.” And he said, “No, I’m not going to tell mother. I know better than to tell mother something like that.” And I said, “Oh, just go out there and get that.”
So he goes and he peels off the bark and brings it back, and I get 8.5-by-11 paper and I roll it up and make this big cigarette. So he held his hand like this, and I lit the end of it down here and he just sucked it in. It burned his lips, his mouth, the end of his nose, around the mouth, and the two front teeth. And I looked at him and I thought, This is not good. And he said, “Sis.” And I said, “You told me you wouldn’t tell mother.” “No, I’m not gonna tell mother. I’m not gonna tell mother.” And nothing moves, you know. “I’m not gonna tell mother.”
So we go in and mother has cooked dinner, and she said, “Oh, honey,” to Babe, she said, “I made your favorite meal.” And he said, “Really? What is it?” And she said, “I made chili.” That was another time I prayed for the return of Christ, but my heart just sunk. I thought, Chili. And he looked at her very quietly, very kindly. He said, “I don’t care for any.” She said, “No, it’s your favorite.” And he said, “No, I just suddenly don’t care for any.”
So she didn’t give him any, and finally, daddy, who was very gracious, said, “What’s wrong, son?” And I hadn’t said, “Don’t tell daddy.”
Patsy: And Luci was smoking. She was smoking hot because she was so full of life. You just didn’t know what to expect from her. One moment, she would do something that was almost shocking, and the next moment she would do something very deeply moving and spiritual and insightful and thoughtful.
The quality that she loved most in people was kindness. She would say that to me all the time, and I would think, I wonder why she thinks kindness is the number one trait that draws her to other people. And now that I am the age that I am, which is well seasoned with a little spicy paprika, here’s what I’ve learned is I love people who are kind. I think the older you get the more you need kindness. I think we need it all our loves, but we become more aware of our need as we age, and I think that was true with Luci.
She never stopped being playful, and she always loved to sing. There was always a song that went with everything, and she had a wide range.
Andrew: Yeah, and wasn’t she trained at some point?
Patsy: She was in opera for a number of years, and her experience in opera took her all around the globe. She spent a lot of time in Italy with other friends who were opera singers, so her background is rich. Also, her working life was rich. She was way up the ladder in the Mobil oil corporation as the first woman executive on the West Coast. She worked for Insight For Living, her brother’s ministry. She was with Women Of Faith. She was an author. I mean, she was, she was, she was.
And she still is. She might be gone, but she has left us such a legacy. And I have to tell you, one of my memories that I still find so fragrant from her life was that often before we left our conference, wherever we might be in the country, she would call ahead to her florist who had her key to the house, and she would order flowers for different rooms. She would tell them some of the flowers she wanted in there, the color emphasis, if there was a theme, like if it was the holidays or whatever.
Andrew: For her home?
Patsy: For her home. So when she walked in as a single woman, she felt met by the sweet fragrance of the bouquets.
Andrew: You know, I love that story because one thing that did stand out to me about Luci — again, having only met her in passing a couple times, but having observed her and listened to her many times — was her comfortability in her singleness. That is not something especially in American culture and then in evangelical culture or church culture that a woman, especially of her generation… That would not always have been the easiest path, to live without having some insecurity and feelings about that, messages from other people. But she seemed to live that out with a lot of confidence and comfortability. Is that true?
Patsy: Yes. When she was 12, she made a list of all the things she wanted to achieve in her lifetime, and when she weighed that list, she realized that a family, an immediate family where she had a husband and children, would not allow her to do these other things. And so she really dismissed that as an option as she pursued the opportunity to experience things that were in her dreams and on her mind and in her heart and part of her destiny. She achieved every single thing on her dream list before she died, including putting her foot on every continent in the world.
Andrew: Isn’t there a story about her being is it in Antarctica?
Patsy: Well, there were a lot of stories from Antarctica, but she said they looked like Michelin people when they put on their outfits to go outside because of the extreme temperatures. But at one point, they left the boat and got on a little tiny utility boat and rode over to an island where there was an outpost.
Now, this outpost was surrounded in nothing but ice for miles and miles and miles. She said there were little things they offered you in there, but she said a very fun thing happened. She said they had one of those windup phonographs, and they put on a record that just happened to be a favorite of Luci’s. And the owner came over to the group. Now, there’s a number of people there of all ages, and he picks Luci. I tell you, she was a man magnet. And he said to her, “Would you dance with me?” She said, “I absolutely would.” And in her Michelin suit, she bobbed around the room with that gentleman. I only wish there had been a camera to capture that. But it was a fun moment for both of them.
But everywhere she went, she seemed to draw people and fun and conversation and a quality of existence that exuded so much joy, everyone wanted to be a part of it.
Andrew: You know, a lot of you who are listening, you were introduced to this podcast through Patsy’s own experience with Women Of Faith, which of course is where you first intersected with Luci Swindoll, who we’re talking about and attributing and remembering and continuing to live out the lessons learned from Luci and then live out those lessons in our lives.
But I want to talk about the Women Of Faith experience a little bit, and I want to ask you, Patsy. A lot of strong personalities on that stage, a lot of strong women, a lot of presence, and yet Luci was perhaps one of the most formidable presences in that group. What do you feel like Luci’s role was in the context of the Women Of Faith team and the Porch Pals?
Patsy: Oh, that’s a great question. I don’t think I’ve ever been asked that.
I guess like a family, everyone takes a spot. She was, I think, our cheerleader. She was comedy relief, and she was inspiration because she loved the Scripture, she loved truth. She loved when people went up on the platform and gave their heart. When she could see someone giving all they had to a song or playing an instrument or speaking a message she could not wait when you stepped off the stage to absolutely celebrate you.
And celebrate was a word that was often connected to her. She even had a book on that. It was something about confetti. But one of her books that I love the most is called I Married Adventure, and Luci had a belief system. She believed she could not give a book unless it was personalized by her, and she did not want you to give her a book unless you personalized it. She wanted your name. She wanted a date. She wanted why you were giving it, if it was a holiday or you were celebrating a certain quality in the friendship. She wanted it written down.
And I remember early on I gave her a little stack of books I thought she’d enjoy, and the first thing she did was check all the front pages and they were blank. And she said to me, “These are not ready to be given as a gift.” She said, “You have to go back, and you have to personalize it for me.” So I learned that that was not just a gift for Luci; it would be the way I could give gifts the rest of my life.
Andrew: Well, we have been talking about Luci Swindoll, of course Patsy’s colleague and friend for years and years who went on to the other side just about a year ago. And so we are celebrating her, who she is and the lessons we learned from her.
And you’ve been listening to Bridges. I’m Andrew Greer. My co-host is the wonderful Patsy Clairmont, who you’ve been hearing from a lot today, and we’re going to be back for a couple more lessons from Luci.
Patsy: Andrew, I understand, word is out, that you do another podcast with a friend of ours. Tell us about that.
Andrew: Mr. Mark Lowry, who was a guest on this podcast. He’s my co-host for Dinner Conversations with Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer. We have a ton of fun talking about all kinds of topics around the table, and you can find them at dinner-conversations.com.
Do you know something that we both love a lot of, Patsy?
Patsy: What’s that?
Andrew: That’s books.
Patsy: Food
Andrew: That too. But I hear you have a book club.
Patsy: I do have a book club. It’s called Porch Pals Book Club, and you can find out more about the book club by going to patsyclairmont.com.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Patsy: Food for the Hungry is giving us a wonderful opportunity. I’m so glad that they have put this program into effect because of the literacy issue around the world, and this is going to help tackle that, plus bring the light of Christ into the lives of children that will be spread throughout the villages and the homes and the hearts of people. I love it. I love it. Tell us more.
Andrew: We have been given the opportunity, through our friends at Food for the Hungry, to purchase Bibles for people in communities around the world. The beauty of these Bibles is that they come ready to read. No matter where these folks are — that may be a community in Bolivia or Cambodia or Haiti or Kenya — all across the world, these Bibles are translated in their native tongue, which we think of being able to procure a Bible anytime we want, either through our technological devices or going to a bookstore, picking one up, or Amazon. It’s not as easily or readily available to other communities that are more rural and more impoverished around the world.
And so, of course, Food for the Hungry has been committed for decades to not only meeting the physical needs of people around the world, and of course, we helped do that through chickens last season. This season we’re getting to complete their mission, and that is meet the spiritual needs through the offering of a Bible.
So go to fh.org/bridges, and for $12, you can purchase a Bible for someone who is waiting to receive it across the world. And don’t forget — your gift is tax deductible.
Andrew: Well, welcome back, everybody. I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m with my co-host Patsy Clairmont, and we’re celebrating the life of her good friend Luci Swindoll.
Luci could be very practical, very pragmatic, couldn’t she?
Patsy: Oh, she absolutely was practical. We used to laugh a lot as a team at her suitcase when she packed. She would spend a week getting everything exactly right. She used a ruler at times to make sure things fit the way she wanted and everything had a place.
Andrew: Did she ever give you any practical advice or did you ever hear any practical advice that Luci was giving others that you thought, That’s pretty good?
Patsy: Well, almost all of her advice from the platform were takeaways that would make your life wider, deeper, richer, sweeter, and one of the things that she used to do that was really practical was she told the story about how her dad taught her about the value of money and respecting it. He would hold up his hand with his fingers wide apart, and Luci would do this on the stage over and over again, and it benefited so many people. And with each finger, he said, “Every dollar you get, if you spend some, save some, tithe some, invest some, and give some away. You’ll always have money, and you’ll always enjoy money.”
And so that alone was such a keeper because it’s so true. It’s so practical. It makes sense. It works.
Andrew: It works, exactly. And you know, I think something I’ve learned just from listening to your stories about Luci today is that she worked. Being in the company of Luci produced a lot of higher functioning individuals. Like you said, again, the safety of her courage, you were able to be inside of that and carry along and challenge yourself outside of the boundaries you may have set up for yourself that maybe are unnecessary or out of fear or whatever.
If you could name one thing that you learned about yourself from being in friendship with Luci, what would that be?
Patsy: That I could be more than I was, that I was limiting myself, and that steps of courage, while initially comfortable, lead to a richer life because you have more experiences with people and with adventures. And Luci loved adventure, and she loved people.
And here was one thing that was a huge takeaway when I think on Luci’s life is that she had a wide breadth for people. She did not judge them for what they had done. She only saw what they were capable of. And so it didn’t matter if you had just been released from prison or if you had just graduated with honors, all she saw was potential because of who God is and how he designed us. And her belief in the God of miracles gave her nothing but an upward road for everyone.
Andrew: What a shift that would be in humanity if instead of seeing where people have come from, what they’ve done, maybe even the harms that they have contributed to, instead seeing their potential and the hope in that. It would completely shift the entire world, our outlook, if that was our perspective.
Patsy: Absolutely. Now, Luci didn’t like problems. She liked potential. She didn’t like the elements of counsel as much as she appreciated a room full of people celebrating, because she felt in the midst of that, you would find your counsel.
If we had problems, we didn’t rush to Luci. We rushed to Marilyn. Marilyn and Luci were cohorts. That’s Marilyn Meberg. She was the brains, and Luci was the celebration. It wasn’t that Marilyn was not fun, but Marilyn would first help answer your questions and then invite you into the party.
Andrew: Is there one thing that you learned or something that you learned about God, something new that you learned about God?
Patsy: It was not new to me, but it was enlarged in her presence, and that was the sovereignty of God. She believed very much in the accomplished work of Christ for each person so that once you were in Christ, your place of safety was secured until you stepped into his presence in the fullness of great joy.
Andrew: That’s beautiful.
Is there something that you want to share as we conclude this episode that you feel like might be maybe a lesson of Luci’s that’s been learned and lived out through your life that you would like to encourage others to learn and live out in their lives?
Patsy: Well, to live larger than you are, to give yourself permission to be more because I think we can get into a rhythm where we think, Well, this is who I am. But Luci would say, “You are that, and you are more,” because our God is a God of more. He is a God of abundance. He is a God of blessing, and he takes great joy when we grow. And we personally expand in all ways when we see our own potential bearing fruit.
I would say that Luci really has imprinted upon me to see within another life the way that God would look upon them to the degree that we can do that. We are not God, but we are called to be light and encouragement. There is a way to be a visionary that impacts the quality of your relationship with other people.
Luci would not celebrate something that she didn’t see in you, so she wasn’t misleading. What she saw is what she celebrated so that it could grow and be more for you.
Andrew: Well, it has been delightful today for me to be on the receiving end of lessons from and with Luci, and I hope it’s been the same for you too. And of course, one of the biggest encouragements from this conversation today is that we each can live with purpose, on purpose, in purpose so that we too can leave legacies that embody lessons for others to learn and live out, that we indeed live to give. And I think that’s how Luci must’ve lived.
Patsy: And I think we think once we have passed that nobody’ll remember us. If you have lived well, they’ll never forget you because they’re going to keep resourcing your life to encourage their own, and isn’t that the way it should be?
Thank you, Luci. Thank you, Lord.
Luci Swindoll singing “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot”
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
If you get there before I do
Coming for to carry me home
Tell all my friends I'm coming too
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Coming for to carry me home
Patsy: Bridges is produced by my co-host, Andrew Greer.
Andrew: And co-produced by my co-host, Patsy Clairmont. Our podcast is recorded by Jesse Phillips.
Patsy: And sometimes my son, Jason Clairmont.
Andrew: At the Arcade in Franklin, Tennessee. Jesse Phillips is also our editor and mixes our show. And our theme music is written by Kyle Buchanan and yours truly, and all of the instruments of the music were played by Kyle Buchanan at Aries Lounge in Spring Hill, Tennessee. Our transcripts are provided by Rachel Worsham. Thanks, Rachel, for all your work.
Patsy: If you like what you’ve been listening to, you can help us out by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our show.
Andrew: For more information about Patsy, myself, or to read transcripts and to listen to more episodes, go to bridgesshow.com.
Patsy: Catch you next time.