Episode 38: Zandy Mowry: Change at the Pace of Relationship
Transcript
Patsy: Hi, I’m Patsy Clairmont, and I’m a Boomer.
Andrew: And I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m a Millennial.
Patsy: And you are listening to Bridges.
Andrew: Spiritual Connections Through Generational Conversations
Patsy: Season Two is brought to you by Food for the Hungry.
Andrew: Meeting the physical and spiritual needs of people all around the world for over 50 years.
Patsy: Andrew, I’m excited. I’m excited because we have a friend of mine that’s been a friend for a very long time that’s gonna be our guest, and I haven’t seen her for quite a while, so it ignites fire in my heart. She’s a delightful gal, and I know you’ve already learned that about her, haven’t you?
Andrew: I absolutely have. Actually, I first met Zandy Mowry at your and Les’ house.
Patsy: That’s right.
Andrew: You remember that?
Patsy: I do.
Andrew: You invited me over. That was when The New Respects — the band that she’s in, which really has blown up. They have toured with everyone from NEEDTOBREATHE to Switchfoot to O.A.R., a bunch of big rock bands.
Patsy: What’s a Switchfoot?
Andrew: It’s a popular band. But I’m sure you’re not the only one with that question listening, so great clarity.
But The New Respects is an incredible band. They’re incredible musicians. You’ve known that a long time because they interacted as part of Nicole C. Mullen’s troop at Women of Faith, but you introduced me to Zandy, to her siblings, who are part of the band, to Nicole C.’s daughter Jasmine. Zandy is a good representation of all of them in the sense that they are a light.
Patsy: They are light, they are joy, they bring a lot of heart to their music and, therefore, a lot of delight to their listeners.
Andrew: They sure do. And Zandy, though she would be… I’m an old Millennial, right?
Patsy: Very
Andrew: She would be younger. In fact, she was questioning if that was true when we threw our little show lines, but indeed I am, folks, three years in. But she is on the younger side of that. She has just turned 27 but has some extremely insightful and mature perspectives about these race relation conversations that we’ve been having in celebration of Black History Month, so I am thrilled that she was willing to come and I’m proud of us that we thought of having such a delightful guest.
Patsy: Yes. Delightful is the right word. It was a pleasure to be in her company.
Patsy: This is one wet, dreary day, so I’m glad we’ve invited sunshine to join us.
Andrew: Yes. Here, here.
Patsy: We have a very special guest that I can’t introduce until I tell you about the bridge that brings her to us, and that is the bridge of love. You know, love helps us to encounter each other in ways that would not have been possible otherwise, whether that’s family. Whether that is in a broken friendship, whether that is in race relations, whatever, wherever there may be some conflict, love can conquer that.
But it’s got to be not ooey gooey love but practical love, where we take deliberate steps to go from our side to the middle and meet up for important conversations, and that’s what we’re going to have today.
But there’s another reason that I chose love as a bridge, and that is because our friend Zandy from New Respect, I’ve known her for quite a while, even though she’s young and I’m…not.
Andrew: Only a small gap, small gap.
Patsy: Love has helped us to bridge that generational difference, and I have respect for her, not just because she’s in New Respect, because I watched the discipline that she exercised in her teenage years in being with Nicole Mullen’s troop and coming to Women of Faith. I saw her discipline in the memorization of Scripture that they did regularly as a team, but that really began even earlier than that in that she had godly parents that planted the Word, and along came our dear friend Nicole Mullen, who watered and nurtured those seeds within you. And I saw your love grow, and I saw God using you in all sorts of great ways.
But love also brings to mind your sister, your twin that the two of you just celebrated your birthdays.
Zandy: We did, yeah.
Andrew: Let’s bring you into the conversation. Let’s tell who she is.
Patsy: I’m having too much fun talking about her.
Andrew: I’ve never heard her introduce anybody like this. I mean, she is obsessed with you. I finally have a guest she’s interested in.
Patsy: I’m interested in all our guests, but I have not been a part of their lives as long.
Andrew: That’s true, that’s true.
Patsy: I’ve been an observer of her growth, and when you see someone go from child into young person into young woman into wife…
Andrew: Yes, and that wife that is here today, which we do want to talk about your union, but I want to tell people who’s with us, and I want to say hey.
So Zandy Mowry, hey. Thank you for being with us today. You are sunshine. Patsy is exactly right. You know, it’s wintertime here in Nashville, and yet I wore my…it’s like I’m at the beach because I was like, Zandy’s coming in. I gotta deflect the rays, you know. I put my suntan lotion on.
Patsy: It didn’t help.
Andrew: No, it did not help.
You and your siblings and, of course, Nicole’s daughter Jasmine make up The New Respects, which some of our audience will not know you guys, but rock ‘n’ roll in the way rock ‘n’ roll is supposed to be. It’s music of love. It’s got folk in it, it’s got Americana, and it’s got sunshine all over it. It’s foolish, it's so good. I listen to it, and I’m like, This is dumb. It’s so good.
So the musical aspects of your life, but you have been connected to Patsy and, of course, the Women of Faith family for years and years, and she has seen you grow up. And even we met probably five, six years ago when you were in your young 20s. Now you’re getting into your late 20s, you’re a wife. So what is it, what changed about your life, your perspectives, what has shifted in you having been married now a year-plus?
Zandy: Wow. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I have known Ms. Patsy, I think it’s 16 years now. I was 11 when we did Women of Faith. I’m 27 now. You’ve always been somebody that’s easy to look up to, even though in height I’m taller.
Andrew: Quite a bit.
Zandy: But I just remember being in Women of Faith, and there was eight of us traveling; and all of us were somewhere between 11 and 13, and we would sit through every conference. By the fifth one, we knew the speeches by heart. But we would sit, and there was always something new. And whenever Ms. Patsy got up there, we would all be like, Oh yes, Ms. Patsy’s going, and we would, like, lean in.
Andrew: She’s hip, isn’t she?
Zandy: Yeah. And she would bring us gifts and be like, “This is what I’m learning. I’m gonna teach you.” Like we weren’t kids; we were like friends in a way, and I’ve always felt so seen by you. So getting this call to do this podcast, I was like, Of course. I’ll walk there if I have to. Nothing can stop me.
Andrew: Thankfully, you didn’t.
Zandy: Yeah, so in the last year and a half, I got married. So we got married in the middle of COVID, September 2020. So my husband, he moved from California. We were long distance for two years. He moved from California in January of 2020. I toured for about a month or so right after that, and then COVID hit, and so it was a lot of we didn’t know what was happening.
You know, we all had to stay at home for two weeks, and then that turned into a month, that turned into two months, and then we were like, okay, we just gotta figure out how to continue to live instead of just stopping life to wait until all of this is over. So by July, he proposed, and we were gonna wait, like let’s get married next year, and then once COVID kept lingering, we were like, We’re not gonna wait.
Andrew: We’re not gonna wait on this, yeah.
Do you think COVID and kind of the culture of COVID, just all of us dealing with new thoughts and emotions and practices, was part of his prompt to go ahead and propose?
Zandy: I don’t know. I think that part of it was he was coming to Nashville to propose, so I knew that that system was already set in place. I think probably the speed in which he realized that he could do it… I’ve learned with men there’s this idea that…
Andrew: I’m looking forward to this.
Zandy: Most men I know, married and unmarried, if I talk to them about their process of when they are going to propose, there’s always like this laundry list of when I have this amount of money, when I buy a house, when I have a dog, when he’s potty trained.
Andrew: There’s always a way to delay it, right?
Zandy: And it’s less about not wanting to do it but more about there is some sort of certainty they want in uncertainty because of the pressure of leadership. I respect it, but at the same time, I’m like what the wife could do is help you with some of that. And so I think that was probably the dynamic. More than COVID, it was realizing that having a wife would help him achieve his goals, but he didn’t need to achieve all of his goals before he had a wife. And so, in that, he decided to propose, and then I think we were only engaged for like a month before we got married, maybe a month and a half. Yeah, and so far, so good.
Our first year, a lot of people were like, “Watch out for the first year. It’s kinda gonna be horrible,” and it’s actually been really beautiful. A lot of it was spent together. A lot of my tours were canceled because of COVID, and so what would have been… 2020 was our most booked out year that we had had to date, and so what would have been the first year of me being gone the most was actually the most I was home since I started the band in 2016. And so having a full year, almost a year, in town allowed us to create rhythms and create a home and a life together.
I got back involved in church, and we both play guitar, so we started playing guitar and we would be scheduled on the same Sunday. Touring was my life for so long that home was always a place where I went when touring wasn’t there. And now I’m realizing home is a place I live and touring is a place I live — they both exist, but they also coexist. They’re not just places I go when the other isn’t there, but they’re places where I have life in both now.
Andrew: It’s like you don’t go home because there’s an absence of music or you go back on the road because there’s an absence of community. Now it’s actually finding both.
Zandy: It’s both/and, which is bittersweet. There’s a lot of it that, when I wasn’t on the road, I didn’t have to leave my husband, so the first time that I went back on tour was a 10-week tour and I was only home for one day in the middle of all of that, so it was zero to a thousand. So I just went into these rhythms of community and being with my husband every day to back to the long distance FaceTime and hopefully I can catch you in between concerts and driving and all of that.
I think getting back to a rhythm of both/and has been the bigger hurdle than it was when it was the first year of marriage and we were just kind of figuring each other out and doing it with a lot of laughter and smiles.
Andrew: When you speak about this, especially when you speak about helping him understand or introducing the idea to him right before you all get married “hey, I can be your helper,” and some of these things you feel you want to gain security about that probably are ongoing things. As men, I hear what you’re saying. We do feel a certain responsibility, I think, that’s natural in wanting to take care and wanting to protect, and that goes not just for spouses but goes for children. It goes for our communities. It could go for older people…
Patsy: Do you have any idea why he looked in my direction?
Zandy: I don’t. I don’t.
Andrew: So anyway, but it can go too far. It can become pride. It can become uncentered or unbalanced maybe. Like in my parents’ relationship, which was a beautiful relationship, and I have not met your parents, but I’ve seen your interactions with your parents online and stuff, and it seems like they have a very wonderful relationship too.
Zandy: Yeah, they do.
Andrew: That’s a co, that’s a partnership. And my dad was always accepting of my mother’s help, and my mother was always accepting of my dad’s, which kind of took away that neediness thing. I think a lot of people think of women — I’m just gonna say it — as needy. Instead, you’re saying, from a point of strength, “I can be a helper.” Where did that maturity come from? That seems like a step ahead, to me, that y’all had that before you got married or before you were 40 or whatever.
Zandy: A lot of community. We did premarital counseling, which helped with a lot of that, and then also EJ and Janice Gaines are like our mentors. So obviously we won the jackpot over there.
Patsy: Yay, team, yes.
Zandy: But it was like maybe two years ago now I think, around that time, Tavior and I were dating long distance, and we had kept getting into the same argument different times. It would present itself as a different argument, and then you get to the heart of it. It’s like, Oh, it’s still the same thing. We’re still talking about this. And we finally took it to them, and we were just like…
Janice had been my mentor since I was 17, so when we got together, we involved EJ and brought my husband, Tavior, in and then we all sat down. And that conversation was the first conversation… I was pretty much like, This is all his stuff, and this is why we’re struggling. And EJ was like, “Well, what are you going through?” And I was like, “I can kind of be codependent.” And he was like, “Why’d you just say his stuff and not codependence?” And I was like, “Huh, interesting point.”
Andrew: Like don’t know, gotta go. Here’s the check.
Zandy: Yeah, exactly. “It’s so crazy that I did forget that I have to leave. But I do.”
And we talked for probably two hours about how that dynamic of pointing the finger and throwing people under the bus really causes a world in which you live that’s not safe if it’s ever ruled by chaos or arguments or anything like that. So you’re only safe if everything is good. And so after that conversation, it was the first conversation where we could look at each other and be like, “There are areas where I don’t trust you.” And being able to say it out loud gave us time, and this was probably two years before we got married, to build the trust in the areas that we were honest about that we didn’t have that trust.
So by the time we were talking about the engagement season, our conversations were so straightforward that we were able to just be like, “Hey, this is what it is. I feel like you’re waiting out of fear, and you don’t have to.” Those weren’t our words; they were the words of mentors who had passed them along, and we’re just smart enough to put them in our pocket and know where they are when we need them.
Patsy: Well, when I think that you’ve been married such a short time and you’ve already learned so much and gained good communication skills, that’s going to be invaluable. Les and I will be married 60 years in July, so we think 20 years is still honeymoon, and you’re getting a good foothold by then.
But I really love what you said, Andrew, about she seems to be, or they seem to be, ahead of things, and she has been wise enough to know the value of mentorship. She has been mentored by her parents. She has been mentored by people like Nicole C. Mullen, who had a system set up that helped to develop character and discipline, and was not probably always the thing you wanted to do at the moment you wanted to do it, but because you did it anyway, you learned how to become stronger in your character. I watched that develop in the whole circle, the whole team, in their commitment to each other.
Andrew: Well, there’s a certain element of submission into mentorship, and submission is a very touchy word in church circles and marriage circles and relationships between men and women circles. But it has a very pure intent in the healthy way, and it’s to learn, it’s to be open to growing and evolving in ways of our health.
I think mentorship… I want to throw this into the commercial because I think mentorship is not… We think of it as those who are far beyond us in age, but sometimes it’s just far beyond us in experience. And so when we come back, we want to talk about race relations, and we want to be mentored by you in that conversation, being open to grow, to evolve, to think new thoughts and be healthier in our thoughts about that.
You’ve been listening to Bridges with…
Patsy: Patsy Clairmont, the Boomer.
Andrew: I’m Andrew Greer, the Millennial. We’re with the sweetest of the sweet, the kindest of the kind, the hippest… I mean, even your husband’s name is Tavior. It’s like, where does the hipness end? But we’re with Zandy Mowry of The New Respects, and we’ll be back in a minute.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message & Grand Prize Giveaway
Patsy: Food for the Hungry is giving us a wonderful way to take God’s Word and invest it all over the world, and we get to be a part of it. It will deepen their spiritual experience, it will help in literacy issues, it will bring light into dark places, and we can do it all if you will help us help others. And how do we do that, Andrew?
Andrew: It’s pretty simple. Our friends at Food for the Hungry are giving us a unique opportunity to purchase Bibles for folks all around the world, and here’s the cool part, Patsy. It’s translated, ready to go, ready to read in their language, and that’s a rare thing around the world.
So go to fh.org/briges, and for $12 a pop, you can buy as many Bibles as you want to help our friends know God better and read better across the world.
Patsy: For those of you who buy some Bibles to give away, there’s something for you.
Andrew: That’s right. Every single Bible that you purchase to help people in need around the world through Food for the Hungry is an entry into the Grand Prize Giveaway, and do you know what that Grand Prize Giveaway is, Patsy?
Patsy: I don’t.
Andrew: Well, I’m gonna tell you. You can choose from a selection of Patsy’s artwork, and we’ll make a special print for you that you’re gonna sign.
Patsy: Patsy’s artwork?
Andrew: Sure enough. And then you can pick your favorite hymn, whatever is your favorite hymn from the hymn book, you just let us know, and I will record an original version for you. Plus, that grand prize winner gets a stack of books and CDs signed by us just for them.
Now, here’s the other deal: Anyone who buys 10 or more Bibles to help those in need, we will do a little original Scripture watercolor for them where you’ll get your paint brush dashing across that canvas and I will write the Scripture of their choice hand written on it. We’ll number it, we’ll sign it. It’ll be a special art piece just for your home, and all to say thanks for helping us at fh.org/bridges.
Patsy: Andrew, I understand, word is out, that you do another podcast with a friend of ours. Tell us about that.
Andrew: Mr. Mark Lowry, who was a guest on this podcast. He’s my co-host for Dinner Conversations with Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer. We have a ton of fun talking about all kinds of topics around the table, and you can find them at dinner-conversations.com.
Do you know something that we both love a lot of, Patsy?
Patsy: What’s that?
Andrew: That’s books.
Patsy: Food
Andrew: That too. But I hear you have a book club.
Patsy: I do have a book club. It’s called Porch Pals Book Club, and you can find out more about the book club by going to patsyclairmont.com.
The New Respects singing “What Makes the World”
What makes the world
What makes the world
What makes the world
What makes the world keep spinning?
What makes it all
What makes it all
What makes a life worth living now?
Love makes the world go 'round
Love
I could know the future
I could tell you what it holds
I could own the world
And all its glitter and its gold
I could have the faith
To move mountains and the sea
Without love, I don't have anything
So
What makes the world
What makes the world
What makes the world
What makes the world keep spinning?
What makes it all
What makes it all
What makes a life worth living now?
Love makes the world go 'round
Patsy: I noticed that BJ Thomas had written some words about love being a bridge, and I wanted to share just a couple of them with you. It says, “There is a gap in the world only love can fill. And we can bridge that gap if we have the will. No, it won’t be easy. We’ll need help from above. But if everybody pitches in, we can build a bridge of love.”
Isn’t that great?
Andrew: Yeah.
Patsy: And it’s perfect for our conversation.
Andrew: It is. You know, Zandy, the conversation around race… The first thing I was thinking this morning when I was like, What do we really want to ask of Zandy?, is not what are my questions; what are the questions in this kind of conversation that you want to be asked?
Zandy: Yeah. 2020 was an interesting year for a lot of reasons, but specifically with the racial tension, there were a lot of expectations of understanding that just weren’t there, whether that be more from white people going, “I don’t know anything about this,” or Black people going, “You should know everything about this.” And I feel like the divide is in who’s willing to go first, who’s willing to ask the hard question, whether that be why don’t you know this yet or how do I know this if I’ve never had the experience.
My phone was blown up that year. Instagram was full of advice. “How to talk to your Black friend.”
Andrew: On TikTok.
Zandy: Exactly.
Andrew: I’m like, this can’t be productive.
Zandy: And so there’s a lot of people in my world who took that advice because it was the only thing that they knew how to do. So I didn’t fault them for it, but I think a lot of it, a lot of these conversations, miss the fact that we are talking to individuals with individual experiences, who have a lot of different backgrounds. No Black person’s experience is the same. There’s no one white experience; there’s no one Black experience.
And so I think, in this dynamic, asking personal questions can lead to a general understanding, but it’s by way of relationship and not so by way of, You’re a race, so how does this race feel? More so, You’re a person with an experience because of your race. What experiences have you experienced that I may not know about?
Andrew: I was watching Emmanuel Acho, who does Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man on YouTube. It’s really great. But he has a lot of different people, and he had Chelsea Handler, which I can’t like advocate for here on Bridges, but she had some really great things in response. But it was kind of like there’s still this misunderstanding, as a white person, what is my actual responsibility. Where am I culpable, and what is my responsibility? And is it that simple to say, “This is your responsibility,” and what is that? You know what I mean? Is that a fair question?
Zandy: I think so. It’s still so wide.
Okay, I’ll tell this story. So my friend Ellie Holcomb, she reached out to me in the middle of 2020 and was just like, “Hey, I’ve missed it. Do you mind? What should I do? Are there books I should read?” And I was able to say, I was like, “One, I’ve never read a book on this. I just was born Black.”
Andrew: You didn’t get like a car manual?
Zandy: No, no. That was like, “By the way, welcome to the world. You’ll need to know these things.” Life taught me pretty well.
But a few years prior to that, my godmother had been diagnosed with cancer. She was being sent away to like Mexico or something for some treatment, and I brought my guitar to her house. We like surprised her before she left. I played her a song, we got to spend time with her, and then right after that, I drove to Ellie’s house so that we could write a song together. And in that moment, she let me talk about my godmother, let me talk about my life, and she was kind of typing on her keyboard. And then after we were done with the conversation, she would be like, “You said this. That’s a lyric. You said this. That’s a story. You said this. That’s a song.” And it was the first time that somebody had taught me how to be vulnerable in songwriting and how to connect life to a song, my life to a song. And since then, we have always had these more vulnerable conversations.
So then fast forward to 2020, she’s reaching out now on the other end of how to connect what’s going on in life to her understanding, and because of the history that we had and vulnerability, those questions were less daunting because I knew where her heart was.
And I think that’s where I’m coming from when I say individual people with individual experiences. I had a different response to Ellie because of our history and vulnerability than I did to other people who called our band, because we’re all Black, and were like, “Hey, will you come on this podcast?” and we had never met them before. So because of that relationship, your responsibility to the person is very different.
It’s like if I had a kid and they got sick. My responsibility to take care of this kid is very different versus if it was my neighbor's kid who is in their home. I have no awareness of their sickness. It’s not that I don’t care; I just don’t know how to tend to it because I don’t know that kid. But then when it’s my kid, I know their needs, I know their wants, their favorite popsicle to get so that they can stay hydrated. So in the context of relationship, there is a way that you tend to wounds, tend to sickness, tend to injustice, but there takes history in order to know the person, in order to know how to tend to that offense.
So I think for a general understanding, opening the door to say, “There’s a lot I don’t know. What would be the first thing I should know?” I think is fine. But because my experience as a Black woman, the offenses that I’ve had because I’ve been Black, whether that be with police or just walking around downtown Franklin, are so specific to me, I think specific questions help me feel more seen than general questions.
Does that make sense?
Andrew: Sure, and even when you say seen, I remember talking to Nicole C. one time about… We’re sitting in the middle of downtown Franklin right now recording this, and I was even thinking about this driving here this morning, where she said one time, she said, “You ain’t gonna see me in downtown Franklin.” And she didn’t say, “You ain’t gonna see another Black woman.” She said me. And so by sharing her individual experience though, my eyes suddenly were like, Dang, I have never interacted with a Black person in a shop in downtown Franklin. Suddenly, my eyes were opened, simply by hearing her story, not by hearing it on the news, not by seeing it on someone’s Instagram, but by her saying that. And there was even no agenda to that. It was simply a statement.
Zandy: I think, biblically, that’s the point. We are the body. We are individual people who make up one body, so if you learn about this part of the body, you are, in turn, learning about the whole thing because it’s all connected.
So when you’re learning individual stories, it’s not that the other ones don’t count, but it does give you perception into what this part of the body actually feels. So a story like that where Nicole is like, “You probably won’t catch me there,” makes you go, Oh.
You know like the moment in the movies where somebody makes a comment and then you can see the history of all these things and it all start to make sense? The more you do that individually, the more it will come into focus collectively. And I think that we want a collective answer, but we’re made up of individual stories. And that’s what Jesus did. He approached people individually and was like, “Hey, I care about your story.” But then also he spoke in parables where it was like, generally speaking, you guys are shepherds, so this is the broad understanding. So there’s people, like EJ Gaines, who do a great job of the broad.
I think me, even being a songwriter, I’m just very story-driven, so my answers feel probably closer to individualistic than they would collective, knowing that they work together.
Andrew: Yeah, the movement maybe. But it is individual stories that create change. Like even I was reading, when you mentioned Ellie, y’all started a group together to understand the nuances of racial injustice and to help educate and learn from. And you said something in the post I was reading that was like the trust about Ellie not only came from a history of friendship but she was willing… You were talking about who’s going to make the first move, and you were saying she’s willing to be a part of that change.
“It is individual stories that create change.”
Zandy: Oh yeah.
Andrew: So what if I legitimately do not have a Black friend.
Zandy: A Black person to call.
Patsy: I would say why, first of all.
Zandy: Yeah, yeah. That’s alarming to me.
Andrew: But it’s true.
Zandy: I mean, more times than not. That’s heard because change moves at the pace of relationships, and so I always relate it to this for me because there is an innocent ignorance, to a certain extent, and then there is a choice that has to be made.
Years ago when we saw the kids at the border of Mexico, and they were being taken away from their parents, there is a heartache that we all felt because it was right in front of our faces. And it was like, This is wrong. As a Black woman, I know this is wrong. What can I do to help? But as life moves on and it’s not on our TV screens anymore, because it doesn’t relate to me and the people I’m in relationship with, there is an ease to forget about it because it’s no longer being the thing passed to me as something to care about.
“Change moves at the pace of relationships.”
Andrew: No one’s hashtagging it.
Zandy: No, but if my cousin was at the border, if my best friend’s daughter was at the border, there's no way I would forget about it, no matter how many years had passed or whatever.
So there is an element of that in the Black experience, where when it’s right in front of you, I genuinely believe a lot of people were like, This is wrong. I am not okay with this. What can I do to help? But if none of your community looks like the very thing that’s being hurt, the probability of you forgetting about it is pretty high, just because there will be something else that somebody’s going to be pushing and you’re like, That is wrong. So it takes relationship in order to stay grounded in empathy that breeds change.
So for people who don’t have Black friends or don’t have access to finding Black friends — and that’s even a weird thing too because it’s like, I don’t have one, but where can I find a Black friend?
Andrew: There’s not a signup sheet.
Zandy: Yeah, I’m not saying Google search this, like “Black people willing to talk about race.”
But I mean, in my life, everything that I’ve wanted and don’t have comes through prayer. That may look like somebody coming into your life, or that may look like somebody that’s been in your life you’ve never noticed.
Andrew: You’ve never seen.
Zandy: Yeah. And it’s like, Oh. We do go to the same grocery store every Monday because we’re in the same routine; I’ve just never talked to this person. It could be you study at the same Starbucks. It could be just somebody that is checking you out that you never really said, “Hey, what’s your name?” There’s opportunity for relationship in all places we go, but because our life is so Point A, Point B, I’m going to the store to get my food, I’m going to the bank to cash this check, we miss a lot of invitation into relationship.
I think I would just start with asking for your eyes to be opened to opportunity that you may have been blind to because life is busy for everybody. And that’s also just never been something I’ve had to do. Like I’ve never had to find a Black friend, and I’ve never had to find a white friend.
“We miss a lot of invitation into relationship.”
Andrew: That’s what’s interesting too. When you said, Patsy, your question’s kind of like why don’t you, it is interesting to me that all my Black friends don’t just hang with Black people, but I could definitely look at some white friends who only hang with white people.
Zandy: It’s currency. I don’t have white friends because they can do something for me. I was raised in a very diverse community, but the better schools I was put in were white. You know what I mean? The better environments my parents were intentional about raising me in, they were more white communities than not. And so there was never this choice, as a kid, to be like, “I’m only going to play with Black kids.” I would’ve been playing with my sister.
And even now, as you get older, the church I go to is predominantly white, the industry I work in is predominantly white. There’s not a lot of places I’m going where I even have the option to just talk to the people of color. And that is not the case in the white community because there is that option. I mean, if I were just picking a straw, the probability that I would talk to another white person is pretty high.
So for me, I have to be intentional to seek out Black people, and it’s the same way for white people. It’s just people are not assuming what my motive is because we look the same already, whereas if a white person approached me, I have to be like, I don’t know. What are you trying to…?
Andrew: And I don’t know if I’m mistaken about this or if this is some kind of biased observation, but I have noticed, because I did not grow up with a large Black community around me — it was a large Hispanic community, so it was whites and Hispanics. Because I loved elements of Black culture, I sought out Black communities based on mediums of music and things that were drawing me to it. So what I noticed when I began to actually observe Black communities because I was not living in one is that Black communities take care of each other.
This is how I noticed. This is just where it kind of dawned on me one day. I drove by two different cars on the side of the road that were Black individuals that had a flat tire or some issue, and there was a Black individual helping them. It would take everything in me to stop if I saw Patsy, not because… Because we’re friends, absolutely, but you know.
Patsy: Oh, I don’t know. I’m not sure.
Andrew: But an elderly white woman. I’m just kidding. I’m totally kidding.
But you know what I mean? Which I guess that is born of history. I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m saying there really, except just gleaning from your own observations.
Zandy: Well, I think the Black community had to take care of each other. There was a necessity in survival. We couldn’t be individualistic. There was no success in that. Whereas there is that way in white communities, where it’s like if I do it by myself, then I get…
Andrew: We can be more autonomous and it work.
Zandy: And it work, yeah.
Andrew: To a certain degree.
Zandy: Right. But you’re not going to get very far alone in the Black community, and I don’t think you’ll get far alone in the Kingdom of God. That is the point. And so there is an understanding of the Kingdom of God that we had to have as Black people that I wouldn’t trade because I feel like I get to know that upside down thing — you know, the least of these are the greatest thing. And I’m not saying Black people are the greatest. I’m saying that the understanding of depravity is wholeness in the Kingdom of God is something that I had to know on earth and not just experience in heaven.
And I think that’s what you’re saying. In the community aspect of it, I have to but I also want to help you. And that’s when Black people win, it’s like we all win. Now it does mean when Black people lose, we all lose, it feels. There’s a downside, but it’s still the… When there’s two Black people in a room, me being one of them, I can walk up to the other person and go, “You good?” without knowing their name and there be a connection there because community is community.
Patsy: I love that. When we were on the Women of Faith traveling, and when we would be traveling on the same airlines as a team, which didn’t happen a lot because we lived all over the country, but every once in a while, it would happen. I was fascinated at the young Black men working in the airport that would race to Thelma Wells to help her, and I would think, Huh? What are they doing? They would say, “Mama, do you need anything else?” And I would think, Oh, she’s related to them. And I said, “Now, you know them?” And she would say, “No, not directly.” And I would think, Well, they certainly wanted to serve you. How loving, how supportive. And she would even speak directly at them, “Now, you make sure you’re doing what you need to do. You take care of things. Take care of business.” And I would think, Wow. Did you know him? Because that was new for me. I thought, Boy, I love the families behind these young men who have learned to respect and to support.
Andrew: That could be one way — I’ll speak for myself — me as a white person could learn more about the Black experience is through the spiritual common denominator. If I can’t find any other way to wrap my head around it or to want to be a part of it, or if I still am finding myself having these prejudices and biases in myself because someone’s hashtagging something to much and it’s annoying me. I’m just speaking the truth, right. There’s people who are going to get worn out. The easiest way for me to refresh in that is to be in a spiritual community with people of color, people of different races because we’re coming to the table for the same reason.
And I just think it’s completely interesting — and more than interesting, lovely and beautiful — that you just have a leg up somewhere in spiritual life. I’m like, Dang. They know something I don’t. And I want to know. I want to know what it means to relate to Jesus as man of sorrows and not just as high priest. You know what I mean? And it’s all those things.
And I want to remember that, though I was made in the image of God, you were made in the image of God, and Jesse was made in the image of God, and Patsy is, and whoa. Could we all potentially actually be a reflection of him, even in color and dynamic? How deep is he? So there’s just a lot of wonder that could be.
Patsy: It’s that immeasurable love of God that is so inclusive and so of family. There’s that immediacy of when we say “Jesus,” we suddenly are related. It’s our willingness to receive the depth of that love, and that takes a working into in a life and a story.
“It’s that immeasurable love of God that is so inclusive and so of family.”
Andrew: Especially when speaking of race relations, we go to Galatians all the time, but I just think it’s the most beautiful thing to read this again aloud: “You are all sons of God through faith in Jesus.” That’s what brings us to the table. “And for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.”
For us facilitating this conversation, I think one of the most beautiful things people of faith in this conversation, at least how I could interact in a way of willingness and surrender, is to step into the journey of claiming the promise side by side with those who are also guaranteed the promise.
Zandy: Yeah. Again, that’s the point of the gospel. Jesus did the bridge work first.
I think, for a long time, I thought Jesus was the point in the gospel, like okay, that’s the main dude that we’re supposed to be marrying after. But the point was we needed Jesus to get back to God the Father. We had separation from God, and Jesus came as his sacrifice to bridge us back into relationship. So Jesus as a son is now side by side with us as we relate to God. And though he is God in flesh, our heart is still connection with God the Father. We didn’t have that unless Jesus came, and now he can parent us in righteousness and holiness and peace.
And I think when you relate that to race, you go back to God the Father and go, Okay, how do we do this? And I think you just have to ask for empathy beyond experience. We’ve all cried at a movie. We’ve all cried at a song. They’re complete strangers. You will never know those people. They’re fiction.
Andrew: They’re acting.
Zandy: They are completely acting. But there is something when you connect your story to theirs that you’re like, Oh, wow, The Notebook.
Andrew: Can’t get behind it, but yeah, sure. For you ladies, I get it.
Zandy: There’s an element to story that connects our hearts to other people’s experience. And so I’m just thinking more about the question of if you don’t have a Black friend, there are Black stories that you can meet with empathy that will break you just as much as if you knew a friend.
Just like the Bible does. It’s story that we get to read and go, Oh, David. He was not perfect. I am not perfect. Oh, but God loves me just the same. There are countless stories where you’re able to read — and look at Just Mercy — and go, Oh, they were not treated fairly. And then it comes into focus a little bit more than if it’s just like, I don’t really know what to do, so I guess, just, I’ll pray. It’s like, sure, yes, we’re called to pray for each other, but when empathy is involved…
Before Jesus performs a miracle, it says he was moved with compassion. So that wasn’t an emotionless act. This wasn’t like, I’m God, so I’m just saving people and closing my eyes and doing it. But there is a story that he saw and he had compassion for us as people; therefore, he did. And I think any act void of emotion can be done by anyone. But Jesus mirrored himself of making himself human so that he could experience our emotions and then act with them — not leading, because God leads, but definitely helping, definitely connecting to the story more.
The Scripture that says, “We do not have a high priest who can’t empathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way we were, yet he did not sin.” There is something to that. It’s not that he’s not human that he was able to succeed. He was, he experienced everything we did, and he still did it well. And I think that is a perfect example of, as Black and white people, having completely different experiences, but we’re still human. You may not have ever had the bloodline that I have, but you’ve had hurt, you’ve been sad, you’ve been disregarded, and those emotions, when dealt with healthily, can connect us in empathy that move us to compassion to help each other, just as Jesus did.
Patsy: Amen. What a beautiful way of putting it.
I had regard for you already when you were 11 because of the choices you were making, and now at 27, I’m just… Is it 27? That’s hard to believe. Oh my goodness. Well, anyway, great regard for the way that you continue to grow and to learn and to share and to be so kind.
BJ Thomas said in his song: “Then one day we’ll cross that bridge to a better life, and we’ll leave behind us the old world of strife. When we reach our new world, hate will never fear, and I bet if we could see God’s face, he’d be smiling ear to ear.”
So making the Lord happy in the choices we make and continuing to put forth the effort to be purposed in what we do, to be available, to be a noticer, to be an expresser, all of that is gonna help the human need to be known, to be seen, and to be cared for. So thank you. Thank you for what you bring.
Andrew: Thank you for letting us know you, see you, and hopefully care for you a little bit today.
Zandy: Thanks for having me.
Andrew: You cared for us. And the McDonald’s coffee, it’s now a tradition.
Zandy: I hope everybody else gets McDonald’s coffee.
Patsy: Bridges is produced by my co-host, Andrew Greer.
Andrew: And co-produced by my co-host, Patsy Clairmont. Our podcast is recorded by Jesse Phillips.
Patsy: And sometimes my son, Jason Clairmont.
Andrew: At the Arcade in Franklin, Tennessee. Jesse Phillips is also our editor and mixes our show. And our theme music is written by Kyle Buchanan and yours truly, and all of the instruments of the music were played by Kyle Buchanan at Aries Lounge in Spring Hill, Tennessee. Our transcripts are provided by Rachel Worsham. Thanks, Rachel, for all your work.
Patsy: If you like what you’ve been listening to, you can help us out by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our show.
Andrew: For more information about Patsy, myself, or to read transcripts and to listen to more episodes, go to bridgesshow.com.
Patsy: Catch you next time.