Episode 09: Point of Grace: The Learning of Living
Transcript
Patsy: Hi, I’m Patsy Clairmont, and I’m a Boomer.
Andrew: I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m a Millennial.
Patsy: And you are listening to Bridges.
Andrew: Spiritual Connections Through Generational Conversations
Patsy: Our next guests are a trio of singers that you know well, and that is Point of Grace. And might I say they are grace-filled women. I know them personally, I’ve had them in my home any number of times, and one of them is a very close friend with my daughter-in-law, and I’ve loved watching that friendship develop. They bring into the home excitement, and they bring into all of our homes music that continues to ring through the years. This is one of our, the second part of our, holiday offering.
Andrew: That’s right. And they have a beautiful holiday offering that we got the privilege of being a part of called A Point of Grace Christmas, their first-ever holiday special. It’s full of songs and stories, and what I love, it also expresses their humor. They are funny women.
Patsy: Funny, funny.
Andrew: Yes. You may not always expect that because they always look good and act good on stage.
Patsy: They’re well behaved.
Andrew: They are very well behaved, which I could take a little lesson from, especially around the holidays.
Patsy: Yes.
Andrew: They also have a new book called How You Live: Lessons from Point of Grace, and so we really dive in during this next conversation in kind of this new phase of life. They’ve entered a new decade, their kids are becoming adults, and so everything in their life looks a little different, especially around the holidays.
Patsy: Absolutely. And they are a charming trio that are going to ring with the sound of Christmas. Join us.
Patsy: Every time we have a bridge, don’t we?
Andrew: We sure do.
Patsy: Something we have to cross over, but crossing over is a good thing.
Andrew: If not to the other side.
Patsy: As long as we can get to the other side, that the bridge is connected on both sides. And I love the holidays. I know you do as well.
Andrew: I do.
Patsy: Mm-hmm. I love the Christmas trees because they’re so fun to decorate.
Andrew: Which you do. Y’all have seen Patsy Clairmont’s Christmas tree. It is full of books. She has like little books that you can take off the Christmas tree. She’ll walk around in her Patsy way, “Come see my Christmas tree.” And then she walks around to the side and plucks a book from her childhood. “Now, checkout this piece of literature.” Isn’t that sweet?
Patsy: Yes, Dick and Jane, See Spot Run. There you go. That’s my childhood. But here’s what I’ve found is there is a very special place full of Christmas trees, not any Christmas tree — the largest Christmas tree in the world, and there’s eight of them. And there are suspension bridges way up in the air that are all lit that are going to take you into this forest of trees that are lit so that you can stand on platforms out in the middle of space and look at them.
Now, you know I don’t like heights, Andrew, and that’s more your thing than mine, and so when I saw the suspension bridge, I thought, That’s too much suspense for me. That’s an Andrew kind of journey. But it does take you to this Christmas land.
Andrew: Paradise, yeah. There are 250-foot Douglas firs that have a series of suspension bridges between them. They’re all lit up for Christmastime, literally creating, like you said, the eight biggest Christmas trees in the world.
Now, some of the biggest Christmas artists in the world are right in front of us today.
Patsy: Ta-da!
Andrew: They are Christmas music icons, but that’s professionally. Personally, they are bright lights in our lives. Will you please welcome to our show today Shelley Breen, Leigh Cappillino, Denise Jones — Point of Grace.
Shelley: Thank you, Andrew. Are you going to tell us where that place is?
Andrew: Oh, yes.
Patsy: This is Vancouver, the north shore of Vancouver.
Shelley: Let’s go. That sounds so cool.
Andrew: Yeah, I know. Well, not this year.
Shelley: No.
Patsy: Oh, if you go online and look this up, you will see the most amazing pictures. I mean, it’s gorgeous.
Andrew: That’s where Patsy likes to live, in the pictures.
Patsy: This is in the Treetops Adventure park.
Shelley: Alright, we’re going.
Andrew: But speaking of going, every year you go and go, especially at Christmastime, right, because Christmas music really has become such a huge part of your profile. And this year, we’re very excited especially, Patsy and I are, because you’re releasing your first Christmas special. I don’t know who thought this up, but it’s brilliant and it’s called A Point of Grace Christmas that we got to be a part of. But talk about Christmas music and why do you think you’ve become this Christmas music go-to.
Shelley: You know, I think Christmas music just lends itself to harmonies more than any other kind of music. If we do anything well, it’s sing harmony. By gosh, we can do that. And so I think we are so just in love with the big huge orchestrations and all of the bells and whistles that come with Christmas music that you’re actually allowed to use that time of year and nobody will turn their nose up. It’s something that’s uniting and brings people together.
It’s been one of our favorite forms of albums to create, and we have always said we would love to do a Christmas special. We have said that for years and years and years, like, “Oh gosh, I wish we could get on this or that Christmas special.” Or, “Why doesn’t anyone call us to be on their…? We want to do Christmas at the White House or whatever.” And we never have. So we’re like, we’re just gonna do this ourself. And so we put together a really, really special, with your help, Christmas special I think.
Leigh: I also think because we’re girls, we get to wear the pretty dresses, we get to have all the decorations, and we’re moms, so that means we get to see it through the eyes of our children. It made traveling together at Christmastime so unique and so special for our kids. So we just wanted to do it every year because it’s just too much fun.
Patsy: I was just going to say, when you were talking about girls and dressing up, it reminded me of seeing Sandi Patty do her Christmas special and she had on the beautiful fur-lined cape and hood, and she was in a sleigh that someone, you couldn’t see who it was, pushed it across the stage because it was actually on wheels. It was so cute.
Leigh: We’ll sign Dana up for that. He could push us.
Andrew: I’ve seen pictures of y’all in a sled. The cape and the hood sounds like Halloween.
Patsy: I think Andrew could be the pusher.
Andrew: Quite pushy.
Patsy: Here is the thing: We are all friends, and we’ve been friends for a long time. And so it is hard for us not to get over playful, so let us direct some of this to the people we invited so we can get some clear answers.
Andrew: That was a direct admonition.
Leigh: That was a mommy, parental moment.
Andrew: Alright. Well, I’ve got a good question for you. I want to stay on Christmas for a second because this is a holiday episode. I think going even into public, you know, you’ll be at Target or something and over the speakers you’ll hear, O come let us adore Him. For those of us who are disciples of Jesus who have been persuaded by the gospel of Christianity, it is an extremely safe space, or a sanctuary of sorts, in the year. I even heard a publicist friend of ours say that it’s so much easier to pitch her artists or authors that are Christians in the holiday season because Christmas is Christian. Do you feel that kind of like sanctuary or a different sort of ease with even your spirituality at the holidays?
Denise: Oh, definitely. I think so. It’s a wonderful time that we are able to really just go, “Invite your family. Invite your neighbors,” because they’re not gonna be offended when they come to a Christmas show and hear “O Come Let Us Adore Him” or “The First Noel” or “O Holy Night.” That is not going to be offensive to them.
It’s just a wonderful opportunity to bring people in to go listen to music. Music speaks. We’ve always said this: Music speaks to the heart like nothing else does. So it’s just a wonderful chance for us to even have fun with it too. A lot of Christmas records have the fun stuff as well as the sacred music, and so it gives us a chance to smile and laugh and be playful in shows.
And even like you said, we’re able to sing on a TV show or something. We get invited a little more often in those Christmas settings.
“Music speaks to the heart like nothing else does.”
Point of Grace singing “Joy to the World”
Joy to the world, the Lord is come
Let earth receive her King
Let every heart prepare Him room
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing
Bridges Sponsorship Message
Patsy: “Where would I be if I did not believe I would experience the Lord’s favor in the land of the living? Rely on the Lord! Be strong and confident! Rely on the Lord!” Those are the last two verses of Psalm 27 from the Abide Bible. It is a new bible that has been in my home now for several months, so I’ve had time to work with it and it to work inside of me. It offers beautiful, old art that is associated with verses, so it helps it to become a bigger picture in our mind and our retention is improved. It has places for us to journal on the side as we read. It also has instructions on how to pray this Scripture, how to meditate on it, how to contemplate it so we can sit and soak in God’s Word and allow it to dwell richly within us.
Andrew: What I love about the Abide Bible is that it’s invitational, not just informational. It’s inviting us not to just exercise the Word of God in our head but to really invite it to dwell in our hearts, which to me reminds me of John 15:4: “Abide in me and I in you.” So you can order your copy of the Abide Bible today at bridgesshow.com/abide.
Bridges Sponsorship Message
Patsy: I’m excited about Food for the Hungry because they know how to get to the need of people. If you meet their needs, then their heart is open to anything else you say, so they’re feeding the children not only to nurture them and prepare them for real life but to hear about Jesus. And one of the ways that they’re able to help these families and it be sustainable is by chickens, Andrew.
Andrew: That’s right. It’s incredible. For just $14, you can provide a family with a chicken, and if you want to multiply that blessing, you can provide them with two chickens for just $28. And we know that chickens multiply, so that’s more eggs for the children to have the protein that they need, for them to sell the extras at market, and those chickens last eight to 10 years. It’s a huge blessing. All you have to do is go to fh.org/bridges.
Patsy: You have written a new book.
Shelley: Yes, we have.
Patsy: And so you need to talk about it.
Shelley: I remember when we first signed on for this with LifeWay to do this book, it was two years ago and they said, “The way we’ve got this all scheduled and all of the back work and the writing and then all of the editing, it’ll come out in the fall of 2021,” and I felt like that would never get here because this was two years ago. I’m sorry, fall of 2020.
Andrew: Indeed, it won’t.
Shelley: And it may not. The rate we’re going. But you know, it was kind of weird how we came to it because we’ve written, as you know, different devotionals through the years, an autobiography when we first started, Girls of Grace bible studies, a cookbook.
And so we’ve done a lot of writing in years past, and it’s always a challenge. I mean, we’re singers for sure before we’re writers, but when we met to kind of talk about the next record, we just kind of hit a wall. I don’t know. We just couldn’t come to a conclusion on what we needed to do. We’d just come off the heels of a Christmas album and a hymns and worship album, which we had never done, and just talking about what our next move was.
Somebody at LifeWay who we had done the two previous records with suggested, “You know, you guys have lived a lot of life now.” We all just had the big 50 birthday, and these were younger girls. As you know, Patsy, all the people that work at LifeWay, they’re so young. They’re like out of college and like 20 and early 30s. But they were like, “We feel like you have a lot to say because you’ve lived a little bit more life now, most of your kids are out of the house now,” except for Leigh’s little happy surprise.
And so that kind of is how it started, the idea of doing this book. It ended up being 41, I think, personal essays from each of us. Not 41 from each of us, but we split that up. It’s a good thing about being in a group. Just about life stuff and where God has brought us, and in the hopes that maybe it can help someone else or minister to someone else or just make someone else feel not alone. Like I’ve been through that too, I’ve struggled with that, or whatever it is.
I think, in part, we wrote this for our own kids just to have kind of something written down that we could pass on because I think our greatest job as moms is just to pass along the story of Jesus. And if we do that, then we didn’t fail. And if we fail to do that, that’s a really big failure.
“Our greatest job as moms is just to pass along the story of Jesus.”
Leigh: I remember when we were even in the LifeWay boardroom and we were just kind of thinking through, Do we need another book? What would make this one count? And for us, as we were just talking about some of the topics, one of the best things about just living life is being able to share what you’ve learned from life. And so we kept talking about the phrase “passing it down.” We wanted to pass down what we’d had the privilege of being raised in as far as our faith, and then some of the things that in hindsight, Oof, let me help you out on this one. Don’t do this.
Patsy: That was right after you had done it. Is that correct?
Leigh: Right, right. I had just done it. I wrote it down. I was like, I gotta be sure not to do this.
Shelley: Do as I say.
Leigh: Right. Don’t do as I do. That was my daddy’s famous quote: “Don’t do as I do. Do as I say.” And I thought, I don’t really understand. Then I got older, and I go, I totally get that.
But we just have a lot of females in our life. Some of them are married. Some of them are single. Some of them have broken stories. Some of them have phenomenal stories where they’ve seen God’s faithfulness in their life. But we’ve just had such a privilege of coming alongside those girls, and they want some counsel here and there. When we’re asked, we love to share truth, our truth. The truth of our testimony is it can’t be disputed.
I remember when we were in that room just talking about, okay, well, we can’t just talk about anything. We have to talk about our story, what we have to say. And so when we sat around, there was a long list. It’s 41 essays, so it was a long list. It was really fun just to kind of channel, to just take those moments to take that list. We all took the list, and everybody went to their own personal place and looked through that list and hopefully prayed over that list. Certain things would pop out more than others, and that’s how it landed who got this essay and who got that essay. What I loved through that journey was God reminded me of His faithfulness through all of it.
“The truth of our testimony is it can’t be disputed. ”
Andrew: You talk about sharing your story, you said our story, because that can’t be disputed. I love that. In a culture where it actually, strangely, though we prize diversity and a lot of different opinions, actually in my opinion is becoming more black and white. Like if you don’t agree with this, you’re in the wrong. It’s kind of polarizing. But yet what is so important about sharing our story, and all of the nuances of that, is that I can’t dispute it. I can only listen and hear and learn and identify with. Do you think it’s easier to identify with people who simply share their stories rather than their opinions, which could be…?
Leigh: Absolutely.
Denise: Yeah. You know, I think about the people that I’ve learned from in my life, and God really has put just wonderful people like the two of you, Patsy and Andrew.
Andrew: That’s sweet, Denise.
Denise: It’s true. People in our lives, and when they share their life with me, it makes all the difference. I remember thinking somebody’s marriage was perfect, and then they shared their story with me and I go, Oh, okay. And I can learn from that. But instead of them telling me how I need to do my marriage, they shared the story about what God had done in their marriage or what they learned or what they should’ve said or those things. And I learned from that instead of being told what I need to do. And so hopefully just sharing our humanity and just things that we’ve learned, it’ll help…
One thing I love in the book, it gives you kind of just questions for thought, and so allows people to hear our journey but then ask their own questions in their journey to think where they are and what they’ve learned.
Patsy: I think asking the right questions is even more impacting than telling the truth. I’m not saying we should never not tell the truth, but just before we tell the truth, it would be good to ask some questions that cause them to search their heart and mind because that’s where I’ve found I’ve made a lot of changes, when someone asks me the right question and the truth of that question would rise up inside of me, hard to deny and obviously true, and I had to make a decision, what will I do with this. So I’m glad you have questions that help them take what they’re learning from you and bring it into their own life.
And may I say at looking at lives, I have watched the three of you over the many years I’ve known you — you were all just children — and I don’t know that I’ve known of three people who are more devoted to the family unit, to your husbands and your children. You’ve been exemplary in your desire and in your ongoing efforts to do what you want to see done in them. To be both the example and the cheerleader and the guide, I’ve loved watching that.
“Asking the right questions is even more impacting than telling the truth.”
Shelley: Aww, thank you.
Andrew: The book is called How You Live: Lessons Learned from Point of Grace, which of course we’ve been talking about that book. You let the cat out of the bag, or maybe, Shelley, one of y’all did, about as far as you’re all 50 now.
Denise: Oh, Shelley did. 50s the youngest.
Leigh: 51 actually.
Andrew: I wasn’t going to get specific in the decade, but you have now entered a new decade. My question about that is do you have expectations or do you have fears even about entering into that new decade or what this decade could or might hold? Have you thought through that?
Shelley: I mean, yeah, I have thought about it a little bit. I actually wrote an essay about this in the book, just on aging, and I really have come to see it as like a gift that you get to keep unwrapping almost. And you always heard that when you were younger, like, Oh, you start to not care what people think, and you’re fully free when you get into your 40s. And there is a little bit of truth to that I think, and I think the older you get, if you’re heading in the right direction, the more you know God and then the more free you get in your soul. Just living under Him and under His authority, I think a lot of people think of it as the opposite of freedom, and it is the ultimate freedom because you always know where you stand.
I think now that we’re in our 50s, it’s just more exciting to look back on where God has brought us, and now to use what we know to hopefully be a light. I think all the time, Gosh, if I would have known what I know now when I was on the big stage… When we were in our late 20s and early 30s and we were singing to sold-out areas and stuff, I go, Oh gosh, I feel like I had so many wasted opportunities. I had so many people in front of me. If I would’ve known then what I know now, what could I have said to those young girls.
But no regrets. You can’t look back. God has you on a plan and pathway for a certain reason, and so you just have to be faithful to that everyday. So I guess to answer your question, we’re excited about it. I mean, of course we joke about it.
“I really have come to see [aging] as like a gift that you get to keep unwrapping.”
Leigh: We have to joke about it. I mean, it hurts from time to time. Things hurt. They ache.
Denise: Things fall.
Shelley: We trade our outer bodies in for spiritual awareness I feel like in a way. It’s a great exchange.
Patsy: Can I speak from 75?
Shelley: Yes, tell us how awesome it is.
Patsy: It is awesome. But I’m still asking some of the questions that come into your minds, which is if only I had known this sooner. Why didn’t you tell me, Lord? I could’ve been more helpful to your people.
Shelley: Yes, yes. Thank goodness He doesn’t really need us, but it would’ve been good.
Patsy: I remember recently an unattractive quality in my character was brought to light, and I thought, You’re telling me this now?
Shelley: It had to be the last one. I mean, I really don’t see any. You’re fully sanctified at this point.
Patsy: Here is the thing: It has roots, shoots, and fruit inside of me, so there’s a lot more to deal with. But just when you stop and you consider the blessing of having the privilege of living that long, of the people you’ve met, the places you’ve been, the things you’ve seen, the opportunities to invest in others, I mean, we are so rich in experience.
We don’t have a lot of the limitations, certainly nothing like what we’ve got now where we’re living a more restrictive life, but in it, God is still at work. He’s teaching us about our hearts. He’s teaching us how to be still. He’s teaching us that some of the rhythms we had were not necessarily in our best interest. For many reasons, because that’s what God does with hardship, is He turns it so that there are blessings in it to help us grow and develop.
Andrew: Patsy, I hear that you have a book club.
Patsy: I do. Books are what God used to help heal me, so it delights me to offer that service to others, that they could sign up, anybody. All y’alls, come on in. We want you to join in the book club, and we will read ourselves silly and sane. We’ll have different selections, one every month with a bonus. You can check it out: patsyclairmont.com. And also on that page, you’ll see that I do cheerleading for people. I coach them in helping them stir up their creativity to tell their story. But here’s what I know: You’re into a different kind of storytelling, and you’ve been set up to win awards for what you’ve done.
Andrew: I love music, and I have new record out called Tune My Heart, and it includes some of my really close friends, some of your friends, like Sandra McCracken and Cindy Morgan and Buddy Greene. And you can find that record anywhere you stream or download, or at andrew-greer.com. You know what else, Patsy?
Patsy: What?
Andrew: I’ve got another podcast. It’s not my favorite podcast, but if you like listening to Bridges, then you might like listening to and viewing Dinner Conversations with our pal Mark Lowry and myself. You can find it on Apple Podcasts or Amazon Prime, or simply go to dinner-conversations.com.
Bridges Sponsorship Message
Patsy: Andrew, I’m so excited that one of our sponsors is Food for the Hungry because I like people who are feeding people. I say let’s get to the basic need that a person has, and let’s build up from there. And when you feed a child, you feed their brain, you feed their disposition, you feed their ability to have strength to do the hard work that oftentimes is involved, even if it’s just their studies. If the synapses aren’t snapping, it’s gonna really be tough, so Food for the Hungry’s got the right idea, and they’re talking chickens.
Andrew: That’s right, Patsy. Bawk-bawk-bawk. You can give a family a chicken or a pair of chickens to help them find the nutrition they need on a daily basis, as well as these chickens are producing eggs all the time. We know that, right? We have friends and neighbors who have chickens now here in the States, and they provide those eggs, which then can be sold at market. So a chicken is this warehouse of opportunity for a family. Now, get this: You can provide one chicken for a family in need for $14. That’s it. That’s the chicken. That chicken lives for eight to 10 years and provides those daily eggs. It’s incredible. You can provide a pair of chickens, because we know chickens multiply fast, to help that family on an even deeper level for $28.
Patsy: Yes. I love the idea you can double the blessing for just $28, and this goes to countries like Bolivia, Peru, Ethiopia, Rwanda, and the Dominican Republic. So it’s a wide reach, and it’s something that God spoke to us about and that is giving to the poor and offering something that will help their life. Let’s feed the hungry.
Andrew: Go to fh.org/bridges to provide some chickens for families in need today.
Patsy: And every chicken you purchase for our friends across the world, it becomes an entry into our first ever Bridges giveaway.
Andrew: That’s right. One winner and a guest will receive roundtrip airfare, one night’s lodging, and ground transportation for a getaway in our hometown, Patsy, of Franklin, Tennessee. Plus, we’ll take you to dinner and interview you on a special episode of Bridges.
Patsy: The winner will be drawn on March 31, 2021, so get your chicken before then.
Andrew: I love what you’re talking about on your essay of aging of unwrapping a gift because I think where I’m at currently at 38, it would be a good time, if I’m listening well to all four of you, to begin to understand what it is that I would like to know to carry forward with me.
But it’s interesting culturally because you travel around the world, and I think especially for women, and I’ll talk a lot to you… It’s interesting because obviously men don’t see women like women see themselves and women don’t see men like men see themselves, and we all have that internal struggle, but I always thought aging was beautiful. It’s a testament to things that have been learned, that have been lived. It’s a gracious offering to be passed down to me and then hopefully that I will pass down one day.
I think women, especially in America, could listen well to another woman who is aging say how they are working through the aging process to see themselves in a different gracious, generous life. I mean, culture’s a nip-tuck culture. It’s not a let-the-lines-show.
“[Aging is] a testament to things that have been learned, that have been lived.”
Shelley: It’s anti-aging.
Andrew: Right. So how have you internally worked through that, or are working through that, to say… I mean, I think it’s beautiful, so I’m saying that right here.
Leigh: I mean, immediately I just react by saying it’s a new perspective. You wake up and you don’t take certain things for granted anymore, and instead, you are just overwhelmed with, Wait a minute, this is not surface. This is full of depth. To see my mother and how beautiful she is at 73 and how she didn’t nip and tuck necessarily. She pursued holiness, and it was such a beautiful accessory that she always wore. And I think I’m now appreciating it, the outside looking in but also just that is an accessory I want to wear.
It’s perspective. My perspective has just totally changed. What I used to care about, it’s not at the top of the list anymore.
“[Holiness] is an accessory I want to wear.”
Denise: I do think it is a challenge. One of my essays is on health and stuff. We laugh all the time. You know, we’re gonna get on a diet today. We’re gonna start and then crash and burn. What doesn’t fit anymore and all that. And it is hard. There’s an adjustment constantly with all of those things that we’re faced with culturally with you’ve got to look this way and you shouldn’t let yourself go. But there’s a balance of being healthy. So just really learning those processes of being okay with certain things and just going, you know, if I feel good, that’s what’s important because when I feel good, I love better and I can be more gracious.
And so we have to learn that being graceful to ourselves, and that is a constant, I think for most women, a constant battle that we kind of have to put at the feet everyday. In my opinion, it’s just something you kind of just go, Okay, Lord, I know what’s important today. But also going, I know I need to go for a walk and just breathe, and just what are those balances there? I don’t know. It’s a constant challenge for me.
“When I feel good, I love better and I can be more gracious.”
Andrew: Could each of you name one thing that you feel like this stage of your life that you are letting go of?
Leigh: I’m gonna immediately step in here. I’m a neat freak, and if you know me, which all five of you know me, I have let go of clutter. I’ve decluttered so that the clutter doesn’t overwhelm me anymore. I have a 7-year-old little boy, and he has a lot of little warriors that come in and out of the house, and they leave some of the battlefield unkempt. I’ve just learned to let it go because he is having the best childhood.
Shelley: I think if you ask any of us, it’s all ultimately about control. So I could say, well, some things about trying to make sure my kid does the right thing, or Denise could say making sure she’s trying to eat healthy or whatever. I think just the older we get, you just realize that you’re not really in control, and you can keep trying to be a control freak, but it’s really not gonna make you any happier. And so I think control would probably cover everything in a way.
Denise: Oh gosh, yeah. It does. Controlling everything. I’m in this new process of empty-nesting, and so that’s been just a different thing for me to let go of my boys are in college and they’re going to make choices. I can’t talk to them everyday. Every once in a while I’ll go visit them, and they might let me go in and clean their room or something, just so I can know that at least once they’ve had a clean room.
Other than that, the choices they make… I think when they were little, I was like, People think if they make these choices, then I’m a bad mother. Or all those things, and you just kind of have to go, they’re going to live, and I’m praying that we laid forth a path that they're going to make. But it’s their lives and their stories.
And really, Stu and I are home and starting a new journey together, and that’s been fun.
Shelley: Now she controls Stu.
Denise: Now I control him. So we just kind of are learning to wing it a little bit.
Andrew: I think about the generations that are represented here, and I think about the generations that are represented in your family. Piggybacking off of what you’re talking about, being an empty-nester, of course all of you have children that are either getting into their late teens or into their 20s, so they’re now adults. And of course, we have noted a couple times we have Andy lingering down at 7, so we can have the same conversation with Leigh in 10 years as well.
But what do you think, and Patsy you could probably talk to this too with Marty and Jason, but what is that like? How does parenting shift? What does it look like as children get older, as they fly the coop? What does that look like, and what have you noticed, new ways of thinking, new ways of even relating to them, or even the ways it kind of hurts sometimes.
Shelley: I mean, one things that’s helped me I think though the years and just more as my daughter’s gotten older is just instead of correcting the actual action, whatever it is — if it’s I hear her talking bad about somebody, or just her room and feeling like we do all this for you and you can’t keep your room clean, that’s so disrespectful, all those things. I think what I have found that works, if you really every time go in — it’s almost like you’re going in for the jugular — but when you go in, you just say, “Talk to me about your heart. Why did your heart want you to say that? Why does your heart want to disobey about this?” Like if you kind of question your kid about their heart above whatever it is they’re doing, like what’s the motivation behind whatever it is you’re mad about, that always works really well.
It’s super convicting if they really think about it. And so I kind of go for that a lot now instead of just, “Pick up your room because I said,” or whatever it is. So that’s been helpful I think. And I think it’s helpful for anybody, but it’s pretty convicting.
Andrew: Relationally.
Leigh: Well, mine would probably be a little more two-fold because I have a 17-year-old that’s about to be 18, and one of the things that I’ve noticed just in the most recent months… Now, we have spent a lot of time together in these recent months, right. Very conversational. She’s ready to have conversations with me. She’s not ready to exit the room. And it’s been really sweet. So I’m just gonna leave it there, put a period at the end of that. Thank you, Lord.
And then with Andy, he is helping me see… Talk about character that the Lord kind of reveals in His gentle way that may need some just a little potter and the clay, you know. He’s helping identify some things that aren’t so wonderful about my character.
Andrew: Such as?
Leigh: Well, I shall not speak it. I would rather not speak it because I feel like then they will hold me to it. They’ll hold me accountable to it.
Shelley: No, then we’ll go, “Yeah, we’ve been telling Andy to talk to you about that.”
Leigh: No, I mean, just overall children want to be… Well, first of all, Luci Swindoll would always say, “Children are just little adults. They’re eventually going to turn into adults, and when that happens, what adult do you want them to become?” Sometimes I’m learning, like Shelley was saying, it does all come down to control. I can’t make Andy be who I want him to be. I’ve got to trust God in the development of that. And so I have to trust God in the development of that and do my part of showering him with God’s influence, the characteristic traits of Him, and hopefully, it looks a lot like me too, which chances are…
Denise: Oh goodness. It is a transformation through the years. Like when they’re little: “Don’t touch that.” You have to guide a lot more. You have to give them really strict things. Then you kind of have to become a cheerleader. Everything transitions.
I learned from people along the way just to enjoy those stages, all the stages, even though they sometimes are really rough stages. But in middle school, when you kind of are like, Ugh, what am I supposed to do with this stinky kid, enjoy those things when you’re still driving them because then they’re driving themselves. And you kind of have to learn to cheer them on and see where things land more. You let them land and sometimes fall, and that’s hard. That’s the hardest thing to do as a parent.
And then they get to college, and it’s a sweet relationship that I get to have with them. It’s more adult conversations. My tendency is to want to like “have you done this?” constantly, but I have learned to just wait for them to call me, and this is hard sometimes, just to wait. But then when they call, you’re so like, Ah, he called, and get to talk to him for a minute. He likes me. He likes me.
But when you have them for those moments when they are home from college, you’re like, I just want to make every meal you love. Of course, they want to see their friends, but they do like to eat.
Patsy: Yeah, food is always a great mediator, a good bridge I would say. One thing that I would say to you girls because you’re in a place of your life where it will soon be your reality that along the way unexpectedly your kids become your boss. All that you taught them in leadership and parenting will come back to you in a different form you hadn’t expected but in a voice you’ve known all their lives. So that’s very different.
Andrew: I think cheerleading — Denise, you talked about that — and cheerleading your kids, and what a beautiful aspect of relationship is to just be able to cheer, not control, people in any relationship we have, whether that’s a friendship, whether that’s with our parents as they age and we’re then becoming responsible, or as your kids age and you’re releasing responsibility.
One thing I can say for the three of you, and I think Patsy might echo this, is that you’ve always been cheerleaders. You have. From the moment I’ve known each of you, which I was kind of introduced to you each at a little different time and a little different way, you’ve always cheered, never controlled, at least in my life. And I think that’s a very sweet way to relate to people because, honestly, I think that’s a direct reflection of God’s response or His motivation toward us as one of cheering us forward, not controlling us in reverse.
Patsy: And it’s for building good friendships, and you girls have maintained that and caused it, allowed it, to become deeper and sweeter as the years go by. You shared a lot of memories. You shared a lot of life. And Andrew and I are both grateful for our individual experiences of having your beautiful harmony come through our lives, so thank you for all you’ve done and for being a bridge to many people.
And saying that, Andrew, this is Bridges, and I am Patsy Clairmont.
Andrew: And I am Andrew Greer. We’re thrilled you joined us. Shelley, Leigh, Denise — thank you, and of course, merry Christmas.
Andrew Greer and Leigh Cappillino singing “Silent Night”
Patsy: The music you’re about to hear took place in my home at my dining room table, and I was fully engaged to Andrew Greer and Leigh Cappillino singing “Silent Night.”
Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
'Round yon virgin Mother and Child
Holy infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night
Son of God and love's pure light
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace
Jesus, Lord at Thy birth
Jesus, Lord at Thy birth
Patsy: Bridges is co-produced by Andrew Greer and myself, Patsy Clairmont.
Andrew: And our podcast is recorded and mixed by Jesse Phillips at the Arcade in Franklin, Tennessee.
Patsy: Remember, don’t forget to leave us a rating, a review, or a comment. It all helps our little show get going.
Andrew: To find out more about my co-host Patsy Clairmont or myself, Andrew Greer, or to read transcripts of our show, simply go to bridgesshow.com.