Episode 23: Sandra McCracken: Slow Me Down

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Transcript

Patsy: I’m Patsy Clairmont, and I’m a Boomer.

Andrew: And I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m a Millennial.

Patsy: And you are listening to Bridges.

Andrew: Spiritual Connections Through Generational Conversations

Patsy: And this conversation took place with the amazing and dear and quiet-spirited Sandra McCracken. She is a singer, songwriter, musician. Is there more?

Andrew: There is more. She is a brand new author. Well, she’s written different things for folks like Christianity Today. In fact, her new podcast Steadfast is a part of that network, and she has a new book coming out this fall.

But we are focusing again, in our conversation here, on The FAITHFUL Project. Our friends at David C. Cook and Integrity Music and Compassion International have partnered up for a book and a musical project and a livestream event, which you can find more out about that at faithfulproject.com. But all these are highlighting the voices of women that have carried the story of the gospel all the way from ancient times to today.

And indeed, Sandra has a real gentle nature, and what that does for me is it causes me to pause and really listen.

Patsy: I noticed as we were talking with her that both of us settled down a little bit.

Andrew: What a gift.

Patsy: She should come around daily for us.

Andrew: She is a gift, and this is a wonderful conversation. So here we go.

Patsy: We cannot do this without talking about a bridge, but rather than a specific bridge, what I want to talk about today, Andrew, is the fact that our government is working on plans, coming to an agreement we hope, to build up the infrastructure of our land, especially the bridges. And I think that that really is clearly our guest because she helps build up the infrastructure of our spiritual lives with great music, with important lyrics that sets up a melody in our heart.

Andrew: I agree wholeheartedly. Today, we have with us one of our good friends. I’m so excited to have Sandra McCracken here today. Sandra, I’ve known you for years now. Of course, I’ve known your husband for years and years, and your kids, your family. It is so wonderful to have you here.

Someone said this to me recently that you’re not just one of the most prized songwriters of our time but really the way you’ve contributed songs to the modern church, especially churches that are more steeped in liturgy, has really… They consider you a modern hymn writer. And so I think that’s so cool because you know how much I love hymns. Patsy love hymns. We love you. So we’re grateful you’re here.

Sandra: Thank you both. It’s so good to be with you both.

Andrew: Listen, one of the things we’ve been talking about this month, we’ve been focusing all our episodes on this new project called FAITHFUL, which of course features so many of our friends, you being one of them, but our great friend Ginny Owens and Kelly Minter and Lisa Harper and Amy Grant. All these people, and then the book and the musical component to it, and you were a big part of the songwriting with these other women and, of course, recording this project and the livestream that is now out.

But what I wanted to ask is, in your words, what do you feel like the purpose of The FAITHFUL Project is, and what compelled you to be a part?

Sandra: Good question. I guess there would be many ways to answer that. I think it really serves a need in a lot of ways. One is just this need for community among women in an industry that there are a lot of men in the industry of songwriting. And even in church music, you think about the songs that are played week to week in our churches, and then you think about the stories of women in Scripture and how we need to hear it again in a new way. So to me, I think that’s really the heartbeat of this project is just that these stories of real women would come alive to us, first for us as the recipients but then just as it just flows out from these songs and these stories.

Patsy: I think having a standard for women today is extremely invitational because they long to be heard and seen and known, and these women from the Scripture come forward with their stories, so to speak, and it is very solidifying. It gives us the right to be heard.

Andrew: Both of y’all also in your own way have talked about being known. What do you think it is about being heard by highlighting voices like these projects do for women’s voices that then translates into a feeling of being known?

Sandra: To your question, these stories really hinge on the idea that we are invited into friendship. What both of you are saying is really that there is a great mystery to this, but God invites us into friendship and he invites us all into friendship, not just people that are in power, not just people that are educated, not just people that have privilege, but he invites us equally into friendship.

And this idea of being known, these encounters… The first song “A Woman” just this invitation to speak, to go and speak of what you’ve seen. And the way by which we’re seeing something else is because we have first been seen by him. Just that encounter and that friendship with Christ is really at the center of these stories.

Andrew: Even though this is highlighting women’s voices, it brought to mind for me the Scripture in Galatians, which many of us know in Galatians 3, but I want to read it.

So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with him so that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And I think a part of the equation of highlighting voices that maybe have been diminished in the past is one way of reiterating this, that in Christ Jesus, indeed, everyone is included.

Sandra: This has been such a year of deconstruction. So we’ve been apart from one another, and I think it’s inversely and on the other side of it, we’re coming into a time where we have an opportunity to reconnect with one another and to that exact vision of unity. We’re made for this. We felt that acutely this year.

Patsy: I think the isolation has helped many of us define more clearly what we believe, why we believe it, and what we would like others to know. There’s something about being alone you begin to hear the voices in your own heart and head and determine fresh how you want to walk out your life. And you know that it’s in community because you’ve been alone and you realize, well, alone can be defining. The isolation of it does not often nurture us in the ways that community can.

Andrew: Kind of piggybacking on what Patsy is saying there, what has this year of being more apart than together, what has that brought to the surface for you?

Sandra: It is a good time to ask those questions of why we do what we do. I think the slowness of this year has been so pronounced, and we wouldn’t maybe have chosen that for ourselves. But I do find that we’re all kind of appreciating things about the slowness.

As a mom and as a part of the community, even when the sports teams kicked back in and school activities and everything, it’s like, Well, you don’t have to do all of it. What if we didn’t? And we get to ask that question because we’ve had this great pause in this year, and then we get to reconnect with ourselves and say exactly what you’re saying, Patsy, the question of, What do I want to do? What’s really important? In a way, that’s like a gift that we weren’t expecting out of this.

Andrew: That reminds me of the title track, which is one of my favorite songs off your new record, of “Patient Kingdom.” So we’re going to take a pause so we can hear that from you, and then we’ll be back in a little bit.

I’m Andrew Greer, the Millennial.

Patsy: And I’m Patsy Clairmont, the Boomer.

Andrew: And we’ll be back.

The FAITHFUL Project

Patsy: When women come together to support other women, things happen and lives change. And in the FAITHFUL group, we have an array of women like Amy Grant and Ann Voskamp and Ginny Owens and Kelly Minter, and on and on the names go. Women who are rich in understanding of who God is and are willing to impart it to others. So ladies, let’s make sure that we arm ourself with this faithful information, both in printed form and song.

Andrew: So hear the voices of authors and artists come together to tell the story of God’s faithfulness in and through the women of the Bible on The FAITHFUL Project. Get yours today at faithfulproject.com.

Sandra McCracken singing “Patient Kingdom” with Andrew Greer

Let my soul rise up to meet you

As the day rises to the sun

Let my soul rise up to meet you

Let that patient kingdom come

When's the last time you felt steady in the chaos?

Hear the sound when the seed falls to earth

Is it time to give up your destination?

Slow me down, let love do its work

Let my soul rise up to meet you

As the day rises to the sun

Let my soul rise up to meet you

Let that patient kingdom come

As the trees and hummingbirds lead the chorus

They work so hard, and their center so still

Is it time for a change in direction?

Slow me down as I bend to your will

Let my soul rise up to meet you

As the day rises to the sun

Let my soul rise up to meet you

Let that patient kingdom come

Patsy: One of the things I love about lining up words in a way that speaks to the heart is it draws us together. We can say, “I have felt that. I heard that song or that line. It made a difference for me.” And you’ve done that so well.

Andrew, there were a few lines in that that really resonated with your own heart.

Andrew: Indeed. Yes, I loved the song from the first time I heard it, which actually the three of us were in the same room with our good friend Cindy Morgan when I first heard it before the record came out, and we sang it for something that we were doing together. But I remember even then these two lyrics kind of made me pause to think and to feel for a second: Slow me down, let love do its work.

And then at the end of the other verse, second verse: Slow me down where I bend to your will.

And of course, now we know you were writing those in a season where we had to slow down, but this is not an idea just for a pandemic season, right?

Sandra: Yeah. Well, interesting that you say that because this song actually was written a few years before, but I had put it aside. And then in the very beginning of the pandemic things started to get quiet and I remembered that. I came across a voice memo of this song, and I was like, Wow, this was like a prophetic moment. But the song was actually written sitting on a porch watching a hummingbird with some friends, and thinking about the movement of a hummingbird and the rapid speed of those wings and then the stillness of the bird’s body, and thinking about what it is to be slow and steady and held and yet in movement, in motion.

There’s something in the paradox of those two things that is so much like our faith and how we connect to God. We find rest in him, even as we participate in his work. So love is doing this like slow work, but yet you feel a lot of life’s movement all around it.

So I think this season has caused me to reflect on that in a new way. But it was really sparked by that little bird.

“We find rest in him, even as we participate in his work.”

— Sandra McCracken

Andrew: That’s interesting because lots of times when I hear “slow down,” I will associate “check out” with it. You know what I mean? Like we want to slow down and Netflix or whatever, and that we can still be engaged in the process of resting. It may be a different type of engagement, or maybe it’s just the steady engagement of kingdom work that actually allows us to rest too.

What is the practical sense of that, because our human nature is all about us, and so I think we’re either driven until we’re exhausted or we’re lazy until we’re depressed.

Sandra: That’s interesting because I’ve never thought of it to this depth, but the birds follow migratory patterns for hundreds, sometimes thousands, of miles. So they are going to reach the destination that God has already laid out for them, and they’re going to stop to eat, and then they’re going to stop to rest, and then they’re going to keep going. But essentially, they are on a course, so they can rest in that. And then they just kind of show up, just showing up for the work.

So there’s, again, the active and passive part that I don’t know how to explain it, but you can feel it when you’re actively engaged and yet you are at peace that God is holding all of these movements of your life at one time.

Patsy: I have been in seasons where I’ve been far too busy, and all I’ve done is create a whirlwind of activity but very little peace of mind. In fact, when I’ve been that busy, I seldom have shown up in the fullness of who I am to be there and hear there and benefit from there before my little brain and body have just whirled right away.

So I watch that hummingbird, not the same one perhaps, but hummingbirds and their quick movement, and they have somewhat of a defensive nature with each other, territorial. They often teach me so much about my own lack thereof or need thereof to slow down, like your song says, and to be where you’re at and benefit.

Do you often draw from nature for your music?

Sandra: I really do enjoy nature so much, and if I had a moment or “what do you want to do this afternoon,” if I got to choose, I would just kick off my shoes and walk on a green field somewhere. Because so much of the time I live in my head, I think when I’m out in nature, it helps to really ground me, very literally.

Patsy: I agree. I love the fullness of what he’s given us in nature, and I just see his signature in it all.

Andrew: That’s interesting, the groundedness of nature that you’re talking about, because I’ve often wondered if some of our cultural struggle with anxiety and fear in wealthier countries like ours has to do with our distance from working the land and actually having to surrender. Like the birds that you’re talking about, their destination is set and they have an active and passive part of it. Well, in farming, we have an active and passive because you have to till the soil and you have to plant the seed and do all these things to produce the crop, but yet you have no control over the weather and you have no control over… So there’s a lot of surrender in it too.

In our modern world that is a little bit detached, in some ways I would say from reality, how do you ground yourself and your family amid all the modern whirlwind I guess?

Sandra: Oh, just the connection between our disconnect and our anxiety, even the food we eat, where we shop, what we cook, and what we do for recreation, I think that the busyness, the noise, is so pervasive that I would say probably the first line of defense is just to sort of unplug and actually go outside. And take the time for silence.

Even just Jesus withdrawing in the morning and thinking about his time with people, there was a noise in that even before having cell phones, so he had to make a disciplined effort. It’s discipline, but then it also becomes desire because we actually desire for our affections and our hearts and for the fresh air and the connection with God in these natural places. I think it’s part of our humanness.

Patsy: There are moments when there is such splendor in nature, like in a sunset or a sunrise, that it takes our breath away and positions us to remember that the heavens are declaring who he is, and that’s just one beat of his identity that we’re getting to see. I can’t imagine what it’ll be when we’re in his presence fully.

Andrew: There’s remembrance and reflection I think. Part of the stewardship of my parents to my brothers and me, we all ended up being people who love nature, backpackers and hikers and loving the outdoors. But I don’t think that was necessarily natural for us. We grew up in the 80s and the 90s when there was still plenty of modern technology around, you know, Gameboys and Tetris. I loved that, I think all the detail of it all fits together.

But even like I loved playing the piano. I loved music, and so the piano was in our family room, which was kind of in the center of the home, And there would be times, even though that is a good thing — there’s nothing wrong with music or playing music or me pressing those keys — but my mom would say, “Hey, take a break. Go outside.” Now, part of that was for her sanity.

Patsy: I was going to say, there could be another interpretation to this.

Andrew: She probably has a more straightforward interpretation. I’m gonna wax it poetic, and that was to go outdoors.

But I do think her intuition to send me outdoors, not just to go read or something in my room, was there is a sense of being out here. There’s a sense of well-being. And I would say my family has not been untouched by anxiety or fear at all. I mean, we all live in current days. But I do think it’s been easier to maneuver or to manage in some ways, and I think that has to do with a level of boundaries around our technology that were set in us.

And what we set in our children — and I don’t have children, so I’m saying this being an observer of when I was a child — those things that were set within me in those formative years I find very easy and even desirable. Like you were saying, we go out and then we desire it. That’s real important.

So what is one thing that you do for yourself, or maybe this is for your family or your kids, that is kind of an intentional slow down? What’s something that’s like, Okay, we need to curb this energy? What do you do?

Sandra: I remember being a little girl and running in the creek, playing in the creek, and that was the place where I didn’t have any sense of what time it was. We don’t have a creek near our house, but the kid’ll go out on bikes and things like that. So sending them out.

You’re right — it’s twofold. It’s both “You guys should go find something to do” and “It’s good for you to go outside and to connect with other kids.” I mean, even this last year, we had the six-feet-apart rule, but the kids were on bikes. And ended up they were trading bikes. I was like, “This is not working, you guys. You can’t trade bikes, share bikes, even if you’re six feet apart.” So we had to kind of keep setting the rules.

I think even eating outside, throwing the dinner out on the table in the back, and trying to find ways that we can do those family-centered things together. Another example would be if it’s Mother’s Day or some kind of occasion where I get to call all the shots, I’m going to say let’s go for a hike together. And we’ve done some family camping and a little bit of backpacking. I hope to do more of that.

We say that to them all the time: “We’re a camping family.” And they’re like, Oh my goodness. I don’t know if they share it yet, but maybe one day. It’s kind of a running joke now. It’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re a camping family, mom.”

Andrew: Well, I have backpacked with your husband, so I do know Tim is a camping man. Now, Tim puts all of his energy and motivation into it. Like our rhythms of backpacking are totally different. We’re different people, but we like the outdoors.

Sandra: He’s an Eagle Scout, knows what to bring.

Andrew: I’m so glad to have him along because he knows what to do so I can relax, because I just want to carry the pack and sit by the fire. So yeah, Tim’s a great companion if you want to be a camping family because no one’s got to do anything.

Well, I want to come back and talk a little bit about your children in the theme of multi-generational relationships and how families represent that. And of course, this podcast is so much about that, inspired by Patsy’s and my friendship. So we’re going to come back and talk more with Sandra McCracken here in a minute.

I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m still a Millennial.

Patsy: And I’m Patsy Clairmont, forever a Boomer.

The FAITHFUL Project

Patsy: Andrew, what I have loved through the years of my life is that God has sent women to me in just the right moments to help me bridge a lot of my misunderstanding about what it means to be a woman of God, what it means to be a woman for heaven’s sake. Girlfriends help each other in those ways in personal issues. My husband was so grateful — “Oh my goodness, go talk to your girlfriends about that. I don’t know anything about it.” There’s just some things that women need other women to speak life into them about.

So I’m thrilled that this group called FAITHFUL has been brought together because it’s full of such quality ladies talking about women in Scripture in ways that are meaningful, that are going to bring hope to other gals who are out there questioning.

And when I say quality women, we’re talking about gals like Amy Grant, who you and I both adore her. She is just so lovely at the very core of her being and so peace-giving and gracious. I love Amy Grant, and she kind of embraces all these women in this circle of faithfulness. I like that a lot.

Lisa Harper is in there. I’ve known Lisa for 30 years, and she is a bundle of energy and insight. She’s smart, she’s witty, and she’s wild, honey. She’s got more energy than anyone I know.

We’re just barely scratching the surface of what’s happening. I think FAITHFUL has all the potential for legacy because they’ve got a book, they’ve got music, they’ve got gathering. I mean, hello. We’re talking about a full circle waiting to happen for the good of gals. I like that.

Andrew: I love the creative side of it, what you’ve mentioned already — names of authors and musicians — and the multigenerational relationship that is represented in this book, which of course we love here on Bridges.

Some of my generation, some of the names I love seeing in there are people like Sandra McCracken, who’s an amazing singer-songwriter, podcaster, author herself. Ellie Holcomb, an amazing songwriter and just communicator. Her expressions of faith are so poignant. I think of our good friend Ginny Owens. Everyone loves Ginny. She’s like an Amy, right? Can’t get enough of her. So I love that there’s that multigenerational aspect as these women…

The creative side of it I wanted to mention was that there are authors who are co-writing songs — you know a little bit about that — and then there’s songwriters who are authoring chapters, again, all about the integral role of women in the Bible.

I see this as an empowering thing. That word sometimes can have a lot of layers to it, but what I feel is empowering about this book, for women or for anyone who happens to trace the words on these pages, is that it is showing how God sees women and how he has continually through time, beginning in the beginning of time through the pages of Scripture, and I think is an indicator of how God is still using women today to tell his story through the ages. I think that’s faithful.

Patsy: It is, it is. And the book is lovely. It’s hardcover, it’s well designed, and it’s full of photographs. I love to go through people’s mail, and photographs is one of the ways we can do that. We can see what’s going on, what their outfit looks like, who they’re talking to, imagine what they’re saying one to another. I can tell you this much: There’s a lot of cheerleading going on from one heart to another.

Andrew: And isn’t that important not just among women with women but today to see people who are across generational lines, who have different life experiences, different influences coming together around the same purpose. And of course, that’s what I believe the Spirit of God is about. It’s about unity, and these women are representing that on these pages. And you can find your copy of The FAITHFUL Project book format, music format, whatever you want, at faithfulproject.com.

Patsy: Sandra, would you talk to me about your people that live under your roof?

Sandra: Yes. I have two middle schoolers and then a toddler.

Patsy: Bless you. You know the middle schoolers, both my boys said their hardest years in school was middle school.

Andrew: Do you agree?

Sandra: I think they’re doing alright. They’re hanging in there. This has been a crazy year, and they just went back to in-person school after 13 months or so without being in person with their friends, and that’s been a revelation. They have their own lives, they come home, we have things to talk about together. There’s so much to enjoy that we have missed, and I didn’t even realize how much so. So that’s been really good.

Patsy: So two middle schoolers and then…?

Sandra: And then a toddler. So he’s not quite 2. There’s a lot of joy in that this year, just having… Well, let me say this: One of the things I learned about my middle schoolers and the way that they interact with baby Sam is what draws me to learn about self-forgetfulness because we get so preoccupied with ourselves, and the middle schoolers are going to be so preoccupied with themselves. And then I realize, Oh man, I do the same thing. So we just learn to hide it as adults.

So watching the three of them interact and watching how the baby then brings just that other awareness from the older kids, and then they’re all outside playing basketball or they’re just being silly, just that invitation to play is just really a joy. I think we’ve all enjoyed that this year. With having disrupted schedules, we’ve also had more time to play, so it’s been a good year.

Andrew: It’s cool to see your middle schoolers doing exactly what you’re saying. When you guys were out at Christmastime near my house and we were all kind of in the downtown area of Columbia, but your middle schoolers, they were watching out for Sam. It’s so cool. And with such tenderness. And I’ve seen them be angsty once or twice, like middle schoolers should be, but you’re right. It totally shifts when there’s this really sweet life that kind of we’re collectively caring for. And what I remember thinking was how cool it was that y’all allow them to collectively care for that.

My bothers, we were separated in age, so I maybe think too my brothers did that some with me. And it was so great for my parents too because there’s a trust in that, and there’s also a building of relationship between us that doesn’t always involve my parents. There’s a uniqueness to sibling relationship.

“There’s a uniqueness to sibling relationship.”

— Andrew Greer

Sandra: Yeah, it gives you a wide net of support. I’m the youngest of five kids, and we’re spread out by like 14 years. I do find that that is such a rich experience of more than just your mom and dad as a guide, and you’ve got a lot to draw from.

And you have two boys?

Patsy: I have two boys, but from my first family, my brother and I were nine years apart, and 13 years later our sister came along. So we were a true space age family. In fact, my brother had two children and one on the way by the time our sister came along.

So every home is designed differently, but the dynamics of relationship, while they are different, I remember my brother saying, “Our sister doesn’t feel like a sister. It feels like one of my children.” And I remember that being the firstborn girl, my brother left home early, so I felt like I was the only child for a while. And when my sister came, I thought I was boss of her, which she mentioned to me several times when she got older. “You always thought you were boss of me.” I said, “I was.”

So the assignments relationally teach us much about what we should and should not do relationally to build kindness and gentleness and memories that will last forever.

Andrew: And kindness, what a lesson that we learn in our families, or we can learn in our families, and I think kindness is the gateway to love.

Talk to us about a new book that’s coming up. You have a lot of insight to draw from, as we already know, just under your roof. But what is the new book? What’s the genesis of it, and what’s the theme of it?

Sandra: Yeah, the book is called Send Out Your Light, and I was able to write this during this last year. It was kind of already in motion, but then I hit reset and actually started over on the whole outline. But it’s basically based on Psalm 43, where right in the middle of that psalm, the first half of the psalm is complaint, the last half of the psalm is worship, is praise, and right in the middle it just has this couple of lines. It says, “Send out your light and your truth, and let them lead me.” So there’s this high point where we are invited to recognize that God has given us light and he’s given us the ability to send it out.

So it’s kind of like what you’re saying. This doorway to kindness even is a parallel. To know who we are, to have our light given and then tested and then sent out, that’s really this arch that all of us share.

Andrew: You said the first half of the psalm was kind of this complaint. What do we do with complaint? We’ve all got it.

Patsy: I felt convicted as soon as she said complaint.

Andrew: Did you? Well, actually she’s looking at us, and she said, “Complaint.”

Sandra: I mean, it is good to know that the majority of the psalms are psalms of lament, so lament is in the Bible. It is here for us because God knows us and he gives us these songs to sing. Like we talk about the hummingbird, it is not the destination. It is the part that we’re processing through, and so the gospel continues to pull us through, God’s love continues to pull us through the complaint and on to the other side so we don’t get stuck there. But it is really important to honor it and to say, Hey, that’s what friendship with God is is to be able to talk to him freely, because he already knows, so we can either try to displace it or pretend it’s not there. But I think he’s actually wanting us to bring it forward so that he can work in it.

Patsy: I think the transitional place there is really the bridge, isn’t it, that takes us from complaint to praise and worship, and that we are given an assignment because while we have the freedom to complain, you can get in a cycle where you don't know how to leave your complaint if you don’t have something that bridges from complaint to worship. And sending out the light is certainly part of that.

“You can get in a cycle where you don’t know how to leave your complaint if you don’t have something that bridges from complaint to worship.”

— Patsy Clairmont

Andrew: I think one of the bridges you’ve created is through your podcast Steadfast to explore themes of a spiritual life and how to present those, surrender those, all the things. Tell us a little bit about the podcast Steadfast, which of course is I’m assuming named after one of our favorite Sandra songs “Steadfast.”

Sandra: Yes, which goes back to the psalms. I have a song called “Steadfast,” but it was really from a psalm in another… It’s another word for this word “faithful” that we’re talking about, just a way of naming that God is faithful in our stories, and he is steadfast, and he continues to show up.

So the podcast is really an opportunity to invite people to share their stories of how God has met them, how he’s been faithful, and this season specifically we’ve been talking about patience and asking people, What is your experience with patience? Where do you feel like that’s been a challenge? Where do you feel like God is meeting you?

It’s no accident that that’s the first… When Paul talks in 1 Corinthians about love is patient, I think about that all the time because I struggle with it. I just want things the way I want ‘em, like right now. Why are we going so slow? You know, God moves one mile an hour sometimes, and that is his way of calling us to attention and to his presence.

Andrew: I love that you kind of have an ongoing theme throughout a season. That’s really, really cool. And there’s a patience in that for listeners to kind of take the journey and not to just talk about it for 30 minutes and then go to the next one, 30 minutes, which sometimes is kind of like what church is for us. Each Sunday, we’re hitting it so hard and fast, but to actually be able to just live in the context of an idea or a theme that Scripture is highlighting for us is really, really cool. So we do encourage everyone that’s listening to this to go look for Sandra’s podcast and subscribe to that and rate and review it and do all the things.

Patsy: Don’t just look for it. Let’s lean in and listen and make sure you subscribe because when you subscribe, that shows your support for the efforts.

You have such a gentle heart and a kind way of presenting yourself. Have you always been of that ilk?

Sandra: Oh, thank you. That’s very kind. I was pretty shy growing up and so didn’t look for the spotlight, although I loved music, so music is really what pulled me in to maybe… Even just thinking words and writing a book this year, I was so intimidated by that process because I was just a shy...like I didn’t really want to say more than I needed to. But I think God has really strengthened that over the years, and one of the ways by which has just been journaling, just writing things on a page, which eventually became probably this book and who knows.

But I really appreciate that. It’s been a slow growth even in those ways. Sometimes the things we feel most self-conscious about end up being places that God calls you out.

“Sometimes the things we feel most self-conscious about end up being places that God calls you out.”

— Sandra McCracken

Patsy: Well, how wonderful. What a source of encouragement for the person who is listening to you who feels reluctant and unsure and not desirous of a spotlight because they don’t want all the attention on them and yet having something to say and finding the courage to do it, which you’ve done. So you’re a real beacon of hope there.

Andrew: And we’re going to take that soundbite from earlier when she talked about you being kind, and we’re going to extract that for your kids and we’re going to send that to them and say, “This is what people think of your mother next time you have thoughts about your mother.” Every kid should know that.

It brings us all back to FAITHFUL. We’ve been thrilled to have you today, Sandra. Of course thankful for your friendship but also thankful that you’d be willing to sit in this chair across from us and talk with us, not only about what you’ve got going on in your music and in your books that are coming, which is very exciting to me. I think you’ll be a much more profound writer than you probably give yourself credit for. And FAITHFUL of course — the book, the music, the livestream, all the projects, which you can find at faithfulproject.com — that’s out now, and we’re going to give you a little taste of that because Sandra’s going to sing us a song from the project that you co-wrote and sang on on the recorded project.

Sandra: Yeah, this is a song called “Call Upon Him,” and it’s kind of in the themes of what we’re talking about, just that we move through complaint into praise. And this I wrote with Rachael Lampa and Trillia Newbell, and this one was based on a little prompt we had, which was the slave girl, who in the New Testament, there’s this moment where she has this prophetic gift and then everybody uses her for the gift. The apostles call it out of her, and then she lives a new life of freedom. And there’s just this like ripple effect from the freedom that she experiences, and at the center of that is really just “call upon him, there is power in the name.”