Episode 42: Wendy Pope: Jesus and Women
Transcript
Patsy: Hi, I’m Patsy Clairmont, and I’m a Boomer.
Andrew: And I’m Andrew Greer, and I’m a Millennial.
Patsy: And you are listening to Bridges.
Andrew: Spiritual Connections Through Generational Conversations
Patsy: Season Two is brought to you by Food for the Hungry.
Andrew: Meeting the physical and spiritual needs of people all around the world for over 50 years.
Patsy: Today, Andrew, Wendy Pope is coming, and she has written a book called Jesus Everlasting. Do you love that?
Andrew: I do. That’s an excellent title.
Patsy: It is. Leaning on Our Counselor, Defender, Father, & Friend. And she defines those terms for us through the lives of four women that help us to get a hold of Scripture for our own life.
Andrew: It is always wonderful to hear how Jesus, he who we disciple after, hallmarks the lives of women throughout Scripture. Fellas, if you’re listening in, there’s stuff for us to learn too as we support the women in our lives and as we also take away some of the tidbits from Wendy that say we are valuable in God’s eyes too.
Patsy: She tells us the Counselor is the one who knows us, Defender protects us, Father brings healing and hope, and a Friend will never leave us. She is talking about Jesus everlasting, Wendy Pope.
Patsy: Each podcast, we always bring up a bridge. Well, I shouldn’t say we. I tend to bring up a bridge…
Andrew: And I am grateful for that.
Patsy: Because I believe in connection, which is how you and I have learned how to have a sane conversation.
Andrew: Is that what we call it?
Patsy: Is we have a bridge. And the bridge that I want to talk about today is at Cambridge, and over the river there, they have a bridge called the Bridge of Sighs, and it is based on the Bridge of Sighs in Venice, even though the styles are very different. And the one in Cambridge is covered, and it connects these two great places of education. And I have chosen that bridge because our guest is an educator in that she helps women to understand God’s purpose and direction for their life, and we’ve just had the International Woman’s Day.
Andrew: That’s right.
Patsy: Yesterday or day before, whenever it was. I think it should be everyday.
Andrew: I made the mistake of saying it’s over.
Patsy: And I haven’t forgiven him yet. I think that these women should fall under the category, the women that you’re going to be talking about, of International Women and historical. Not hysterical, Andrew, historical.
Andrew: I got you.
Patsy: So Wendy and I are going to meet on the Bridge of Sighs, and you can’t come.
Andrew: She said I could.
Patsy: And we’re gonna talk girl stuff, so Wendy, welcome.
Wendy: It is a privilege to be sitting across the table from both of you. Thank you for inviting me.
Patsy: We’re delighted to have you, and may I just tell you I love the title of your book?
Wendy: Yes
Patsy: Just saying it brings my heart comfort.
Wendy: Doesn’t it?
Patsy: And it instructs my mind to remember that Jesus is everlasting.
Wendy: Absolutely. And to know that there’s so much hurt, there’s so much pain in this world, and will it end? How is gonna end? How am I gonna get through it? Oh, he’s everlasting. I know the trouble’s bad. I know it seems awful. You’re going through a terrible thing right now. I lost both my parents last year and my mother-in-law within four months, and how do you get through something like that? Because he’s everlasting. I know I’m gonna see him again. They’re in a lot better position than we are today, I'll tell you that, at the feet of Jesus.
But yeah, he was my everlasting. It’s amazing that this book came out at the time that I was going through all of those deaths to have that truth and to anchor me during those days. It’s been since August since my dad passed away. Troubles have come since then, but he’s our everlasting, and we can count on that. And that’s what I hope women will get when they read the book.
Patsy: Yes. Well, I think just even the reminder on the cover is a great beginning, but then it gets richer and deeper and wider in helping us to maybe think about things in ways we hadn’t considered them before.
And you’ve got a lot of good stuff going on. You’ve added elements of music, you’ve got journaling opportunities in here, and you give us guidance into some things that can help us along our own journey. How long have you been teaching other women?
Wendy: Well, I’ve been in ministry speaking and writing for 20 years. But it’s funny. When you talked about being an educator, I’m actually an elementary ed teacher.
Patsy: Alright
Andrew: We sensed it.
Wendy: Yes. So I never ever thought I would do anything like what I do now, what I have the privilege of doing now. My goals in life were to be a teacher, to be a wife, and to be a mom, and to me, those are still the greatest parts of me. I’m married to my sweetheart from college, we have two adult children, and the fact that I still get to teach… I just say my students are older. But I taught fourth grade and didn’t want to go over fourth grade because the math after fourth grade is really hard and I didn’t want my students to be smarter than me.
Andrew: So you’re speaking doesn’t involve algebra, huh?
Wendy: No, no numbers and letters together. That totally messed up math in my opinion.
I stumbled into writing because I was not a really good student. I had to work really hard for Cs. And a funny story is when I got my first book contract with David C Cook, I called my mom, but of course, you want to call mom and tell her all about it. And she was so proud and so happy because I’d really waited a long time to get this nod, and her first response was, “But you can’t spell.” Only a mom could say that and get away with it, right. And I said, “Oh mom, they have editors. I bring the ideas, and I put it all on paper, and they just mix it up together, make sure it all sounds right.” So this has just been an unexpected, beautiful addition to my life to be able to speak.
I’ve always loved the Lord. I’ve always loved him. I still have my very first Bible with my name embossed in gold, and it was the Living Bible paraphrased for children. It’s a picture of Jesus with the lambs around his lap. Like I said, I was not a good reader, which really shows God’s sense of humor that he pulls you to a place where you’re really the weakest, for me to be not a good speller. And I’m not an avid reader. And so I try to make my books with humor and just really rich with God’s truths. So to be a part of ministry in this way, it’s just a beautiful blessing, something I never expected.
Patsy: Well, the first thing I noticed about you was how vivacious you are, and I think when you translate that onto a page, it’s like putting out a welcome mat. People are drawn in, and they want to hear what you have to say. And I don’t think there’s any good book that hasn’t had a great editor working. They are lifesavers because we’re not objective with our own writing and we can miss things.
I remember when the editor said to me — this was my first book of fiction I’d written, and she said, “You really like redheads, don’t you?” I said, “What would make you say that?” She said, “Every other character in each of the short stories is a redhead.” And I went back, and I was shocked. I missed that about me.
Andrew: Yeah, we tell on ourselves sometimes, don’t we, in the writing process.
Wendy: I love the editors that I've worked with, yes.
Patsy: And people say, “Well, I don’t want anybody messing with my writing.” Well, it’s an act of humility to give over your treasured thoughts for someone else to kind of tamper with them, but their tampering is a treasure in that they know what they’re doing.
Wendy: You do have to trust your editors. One Scripture that has shaped my life and ministry but just overall of being a believer is “Those who receive constructive criticism are at home among the wise,” Proverbs 15, it’s 26 or 36, so don’t hold me to the reference.
Patsy: Look them both up. It’ll be good for you.
Wendy: Yeah, they’re probably both good.
But so many times in life we want the part after the comma, like to be at home with the Lord, to be at home with God, but we don’t want the first part of the comma in Scripture. We want this part of the Scripture but not this part. And I started praying that years ago, even before I started in ministry, that I would be the type of person that would be able to receive constructive criticism because I wanted to be more like my Father, my heavenly Father. Those constructive criticisms come in all different places. Sometimes they come from an editor. Sometimes they come from somebody we don’t like, but hey, maybe I need to evaluate this part of my life.
Patsy: Or they might come from our mama.
Wendy: Mama, yes. “You can’t spell.”
Andrew: You know, I have a question about that. That makes me think. When you’re talking about constructive criticism and, of course, you having had a platform that has helped inspire and encourage and educate women for 20 years, it seems to me in my experience and in relationship with women, and we definitely want to come back to the book Jesus Everlasting and talk specifically about that, but before we do that, because you speak to women at large, it seems women are the hardest on themselves in my relationship with women, so how have you learned to receive constructive criticism without beating yourself up more?
Wendy: Okay, that’s a really great question. I worked for years at Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst, and she taught me something that fundamentally changed my way to receive those thoughts. She taught me that if you — when you receive, it’s not if. We’re all gonna receive it. When we receive criticism, we need to ask ourselves, Is there any truth to what is being said? And if there is, help me to receive that, Lord, with grace.
And also, I look at the person that is giving me that constructive feedback. Do they love me? Do they love the Lord? Do they want what’s best for me and what’s going on in my life? So I have to ask myself, first, those questions, and then ask the Lord, Help me now, if that is true, to implement. Show me how I implement that into my life to shape me because my ultimate goal, Lord, is to be like you. And if it’s not true, I’ve evaluated, I’ve set with the Lord, and he has just confirmed in my heart this is just something from a spirit that’s not kind or that’s trying to be rude or hurtful. Then Lord, help me to have grace upon them and to not let that sever that relationship, and help me be receptive and kind back to them even though they may have hurt me. That’s hard. That is not an easy thing. It’s not an easy discipline to have, but you both know, in ministry, you have many opportunities to be shaped by constructive criticism, many. Depending on what version of the Bible you’re teaching from, or you had lunch with that person, or you liked their comment or something on social media.
But even those outside of ministry, what a great discipline to learn how to receive what people say to you. You either take it in or you let go of that. I know the discipline comes from being at one with your Father and being in right standing with your Father, and that is through the study of his Word, prayer, and obedience to the Word. It’s not just study. I mean, we can have all the knowledge and know all the Scripture references by heart, but until we actually apply them through obedience, we don’t have that intimacy with God. So all of that, it’s based on a nurtured relationship. It’s not something that the flesh can generate. It’s all nurtured through a relationship with the Spirit of God in us, allowing him to work in us.
It’s sad for me that there are a lot of beautiful women of all shapes and sizes and colors and nationalities, and he loves us all, that feel less than and are walking around not realizing how beautiful they are to the Father and how much they are loved and valued. It took me a long time to learn that. This did not come easy.
I grew up with Ward and June Cleaver. I describe my parents that way. They were in love from the time they were 14- and 16-years-old. He drove my mom’s bus. And they passed four months apart from each other. I just think that when my mom took her last breath, it took one of my dad’s with him, and he just couldn’t live without her. So I know I grew up in what’s not norm anymore, but when the enemy knew he couldn’t steal my salvation, he was going to do everything he could to rob me of the person that God wanted me to be.
I struggled with self-esteem, with worth, with a lot of things that a lot of women struggled with. And finally, I was like — in my early 30s right after my daughter was born, and my happily ever after wasn’t as great as I thought it was gonna be, even though I had the minivan with the two doors that open down the side and the TV in it. I just felt the Lord say, “Come to me. Try reading my book. You carry it to church. You put highlights in it. You put sermon notes in it. Why don’t you try reading it instead of just filling out the Bible study blanks each week.” I took my Beth Moore Bible study with me, all the blanks filled in, and I started reading, actually reading, Scripture and spending time with the Lord, and every believer would do that, oh my goodness. Our world would be such a beautiful place, and people would want our Lord. Those that don’t know him, they would want our Lord. So that’s a great, great question, and it’s bathed in time invested in the Lord.
Patsy: You’re listening to Wendy Pope, who has written Jesus Everlasting: Leaning on Our Counselor, Defender, Father, & Friend, and she proves those through the lives of some very important women. But I would like to ask you, Wendy, how did your writing of this book help you in your great loss of your family, of your father, your mother, and mother-in-law?
Wendy: Absolutely. Because these titles of God… Okay, the first one is Mighty Counselor. In helping my mom finish well, last January she was diagnosed with liver cancer, and helping her finish well, we needed help. And what do we do when we need help? We look for a counselor. We look for an advisor. And we prayed, Lord, bring us the right people to help us care for mom. And even after she passed, How do we care for dad? How do we love him well? How do we help him live out whatever days he has left? Which we were thinking at the time it might be several years. How do we do that? Lord, help us.
And I’m a believer that the Lord is going to counsel us with his Word, he’s our Counselor with his Word as well, but he will open our experiences and our avenues to the right people at the right time, and he brought us wonderful, wonderful hospice people to work with, wonderful CNAs to come in and help take care of my dad after my mom passed.
He was just there for me. I mean, in the nights when I would wake up and cry and just be so upset that my mom, she’s gonna be with you soon, but she’s suffering. We had 11 days of just horrible suffering with her. She wanted to be at home, and we fought to keep her there, so she took her last breath in the bed that she slept in with my dad for all those years. And it was beautiful, but it was hard. Lord, show me. Just love me. Show me. And just passages, music. You know, we were talking earlier about music. He would lead me just to the right songs.
One of them was Travis Cottrell’s, on his release The Reason, “Even Now.” Even now, you are still good, you are still kind. So even if it wasn’t an actual Scripture, he leads us. We are walking in right standing with him and we know his voice and his leading, he leads us to those places.
“The Lord is going to counsel us with his Word.”
Andrew: When you say music, of course I resonate with that very deeply, as do many people, because music gives us a language for the groans we don’t always know how to express.
“Music gives us a language for the groans we don’t always know how to express.”
Wendy: Beautifully said.
Andrew: And I think my mom wouldn’t mind me sharing this — too late.
Patsy: Oops
Wendy: Yeah, say you’re sorry later.
Andrew: When COVID kind of first hit, she had to have a very routine procedure that had to do with one of her eyes, but because this was at the real beginning stages, which were intense for everybody, and especially in the middle field they were being very strict about anyone who had to have a procedure and going into that. And my mom likes to do things right, and she wants to do things well. And she’s not very well acquainted with the medical field. She’s had a very healthy life. And so all that just kind of put her in a little spiral that’s unusual for her. She’s a very just easy going woman. And my dad, I remember, texted me and said, “You might want to text your mom a little more, just encouraging things and call,” which we do already. But he said, “She’s struggling.”
Well, I ended up visiting maybe a week after — everything went fine and all that — but visiting her a week after her procedure, and the guest room that I stay in in their house, on one of the bedside tables, there’s little coasters in there if I take water in there at night that I use. And I opened up the drawer, and inside, which I know my mother’s handwriting anyway — we all know that — she had begun basically transcribing hymns because she couldn’t sleep at night, which also my mom is a sleeper from way back. She hits the pillow, she’s done.
Wendy: My mother was the same way. I would love that gift.
Andrew: Right? So when they don’t have that gift, it feels stark. And I just remember thinking about what an example, not only our parents but even as men, women, as a grown man, what an example that was to see my mom utilizing all the different resources. Yes, that wasn’t a specific Scripture she was writing out, but it was come Thou fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing Thy grace, even in the dark of night.
And so I think there’s a lot of resources that make Jesus available. In this book, in this resource, Jesus Everlasting, like you’ve already talked about one of the characteristics of God being a Counselor. You list several characteristics of God that women, and all people but specifically the design of this book for women, to access in discovering God. What’s the characteristic, if you had to choose one, that stands out to you the most today?
Wendy: I knew you were gonna ask me that. Oh goodness, today. I would have to say Counselor because experiencing the losses so quickly that we experienced.
And just to kind of put an exclamation point on the year, my husband had a cancer scare that we went through and some surgery and all of that. So it was just a crazy year. So I’m kind of in that pause, like I’ve just pressed pause on any writing projects, I’ve pressed pause on ministry projects. So I’m in the Counselor place where, Lord, where do I go from here? How much time do I sit? I’ve got messages in my heart. I don’t want to sit down right now and work on those. I’ve failed the restrain of his Spirit sitting me down with that. So probably Counselor.
But in any given moment, I’ll just need that peace, and he’s our Prince of Peace. I mean, to experience what our family experienced last year but to still be able to talk about our family, our loved ones, and to know that we have the promise and hope of heaven, of seeing them again, and that we, my brother and I, we left everything out on the field. We have no regrets. We helped both of them finish well. So I have that peace from him and that Defender, I believe, speaking…
Patsy: I was gonna ask you about that.
Wendy: Speaking of, when you were talking about women, specifically because we’re talking about women today, is that whole idea of not feeling that self-worth, that Defender… I talk a lot in the book about the heavenlies and the spiritual battles, that what gets to us has been already filtered through a lot of warfare, so what gets to us God is using that to shape us and to mold us and to take us to that next place in our journey where he wants us to go. But he also, to me I believe as far as me personally and the Mighty God, he defends me when I’m against myself, and he does that through Scripture.
He reminds me because I have hidden the Scripture, his Word, in my heart. It might not be memorized to the fullest, which I’m a full believer that he’s not up there going, That would be really good for your life right now, but you mixed the two words around or you got the wrong translation, so I can’t make that one count for you today, dear. He stands in my defense when I’m even against my own self. I don't really know if that’s translating well.
“He defends me when I’m against myself.”
Andrew: Oh, I think it can very well.
Wendy: His Word is our defender. His Word reminds us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, that we are wholly and dearly loved. His Word reminds us that we need to think on the things that are right, that are true, that are lovely, not thinking on negative things. I’ve had some days, and I’ve got some really strong friends in my corner that remind me, You need to think on the things that are true, that are right, that are lovely. They remind me of those passages.
So just kind of an aside, get a tribe of one or two. There can be two in a tribe, so get a good, godly person. Pray for God to bring you that person to remind you of these.
But yeah, that Scripture defends us, and he stands to our defense when we are feeling ill against ourself and we don’t feel valuable.
Andrew: I want to come back after the commercial talking about some of the specific women that you have highlighted in this book, their stories and how that pronounces even more Counselor, Defender, Father, and Friend, God’s characteristics.
I’m Andrew Greer, the Millennial.
Patsy: I’m Patsy, the Boomer, and we’ll be right back with a bridge over into the Old Testament and the New.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message & Grand Prize Giveaway
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Andrew: It’s pretty simple. Our friends at Food for the Hungry are giving us a unique opportunity to purchase Bibles for folks all around the world, and here’s the cool part, Patsy. It’s translated, ready to go, ready to read in their language, and that’s a rare thing around the world.
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Patsy: For those of you who buy some Bibles to give away, there’s something for you.
Andrew: That’s right. Every single Bible that you purchase to help people in need around the world through Food for the Hungry is an entry into the Grand Prize Giveaway, and do you know what that Grand Prize Giveaway is, Patsy?
Patsy: I don’t.
Andrew: Well, I’m gonna tell you. You can choose from a selection of Patsy’s artwork, and we’ll make a special print for you that you’re gonna sign.
Patsy: Patsy’s artwork?
Andrew: Sure enough. And then you can pick your favorite hymn, whatever is your favorite hymn from the hymn book, you just let us know, and I will record an original version for you. Plus, that grand prize winner gets a stack of books and CDs signed by us just for them.
Now, here’s the other deal: Anyone who buys 10 or more Bibles to help those in need, we will do a little original Scripture watercolor for them where you’ll get your paint brush dashing across that canvas and I will write the Scripture of their choice hand written on it. We’ll number it, we’ll sign it. It’ll be a special art piece just for your home, and all to say thanks for helping us at fh.org/bridges.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Patsy: “Shout out praises to the Lord, all the earth. Worship the Lord with joy. Enter his presence with joyful singing. Acknowledge that the Lord is God. He made us and we belong to him; we are his people and the sheep of his pasture.”
That’s Psalm 100, verses 1 and 2, from my own Abide Bible.
When we abide him and his words abide in us, everything changes — our perspective, our attitude. So it anchors my soul when I go to the Word of God. It teaches me better behavior than I’d have otherwise because I can really suffer from a case of the attitude. So this helps to keep me in a better place with a sweeter attitude in a difficult world.
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Andrew: We have been talking about the Abide Bible throughout the entire Bridges broadcast, but one new way to highlight your experience of reading the Bible is a free 21-day video devotional series called Experience Abide. It’s an incredible way for people to experience the Bible themselves and adds a free benefit to your own spiritual growth, and so we are excited to offer not only the Bible but this free Experience Abide devotional series straight from bridgesshow.com/abide.
Andrew Greer singing “It Is Well With My Soul”
When peace like a river attendeth my way
When sorrows like sea billows roll
Whatever my lot, Thou hast taught me to say
It is well, it is well with my soul
It is well
With my soul
It is well, it is well with my soul
Patsy: It really is not a far away bridge to be able to go from the old to the new. It may take some time in the building of a structure, a covered structure where you can meet with the counsel of God to see how to go from old to new, but you help us with that, Wendy.
Wendy: That’s one of my favorite things to do is to parallel the Old and the New Testament, and just oh my goodness, I love studying Scripture and where could this be referenced in the New Testament. Oh, it’s my favorite.
Andrew: That it’s connected.
Patsy: Do you have a preference, Old or New?
Wendy: You know, I don’t.
Patsy: I don’t either. I just like wherever the truth is. Take me there.
Wendy: I have found the ministry of the Old Testament to the New Testament believer is so underrated. So many people just want to camp out in John, and the gospels are great, Paul’s writings are great, but there’s so many truths to be learned from that journey of God’s people, from the very beginning but especially out of Egypt and just through the prophets and just the wisdom and the correction that God lovingly sent to them, and they did not heed obviously. Yeah, I used to stand in judgment of the Israelites, going, How could you do that? I mean, he gave you water, he gave you manna. And then I started reading, and I started allowing Holy Spirit to work in me, and I’m like, I get it now. I am just like them. We’re reliving that in my opinion, but that’s a conversation for another day.
Patsy: Yes, I hear ya.
Andrew: Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it’s a conversation for today.
Wendy: We’re repeating. We’re at that place where we’re crying out for help. The Lord just spoke a little piece of prophecy in my heart a few years ago, and he said that we are making bricks for Pharaoh, and our Pharaoh is our government. That’s a hot topic, so I don’t really think we need to go live with that. But seriously, we’re repeating. We’re going through it.
Andrew: But it’s also okay. And I think if I can give permission to women, though we’re not gonna dive into those hot topics specifically in this conversation because we have some really meaty things to express about your new book, women can be a really wonderfully leading…a very hospitable voice in the things that we find to trigger us in our cultural conversations. So I, as a man, would always encourage women to speak their piece about things. One, I think it makes sense. I think women weigh their hearts out before the Lord more than men do.
Wendy: I would say that’s accurate.
Andrew: And so that means you guys pause and reflect more than we do in spiritual matters, and that means you have important things to express, insight that we can learn to live by.
So even though I told Patsy, when she expressed International Women’s Day was yesterday and I said, “Well, that’s over,” I would say everyday is International Women’s Day.
Patsy: That’s what I told him, everyday.
Wendy: Absolutely. Well, look who the first missionary was, was the woman at the well. Her whole town, her town, became saved because of her. Our first evangelist was running from the tomb back to say, “Hey, he lives, he lives.”
Patsy: I love that you are able to transition back and forth between the Old and the New and find the depth and the quality of God’s counsel and of the way that he defends women and he defends us all.
Wendy: Right, absolutely.
Patsy: But we’re talking about more or less the girls here because you’re talking about the Father and the Friend, and the women you have chosen are all spectacular. Tell us who you chose and why.
Wendy: Well, I’ll first start by saying this was not part of the initial planning of the book. I don’t know how you sit down and write books, but I know a lot of authors, and they sit down and they outline and then they put their subpoints and their subpoints have subpoints. I don’t work that way. Most of my books were written on a couch in a condo on Ocean Isle that has a great bridge, by the way. That’s my favorite bridge. The Odell Williamson Bridge takes me to Ocean Isle, and I sit and I’ll go away for a week at a time. We plan this out with my husband around our family’s schedule. And I sit with the Lord.
I remember we had signed the contract for this book, and I was like, Lord, it’s about time I get started on this book, and I’m not really sure what we’re gonna say in this one. Do you have any ideas? And the other books that I have written were birthed out of messages that I have taught, and this book was actually born out of a message called “The Gift Goes On.” It’s a primarily Christmas message that I give that we unwrap Jesus, but then we wrap him right back up and put him up in our closet in our little color-coded Rubbermaid things.
So he really laid on my heart, This is what we’re gonna write. This is the prophecy that was filled, yes, for Israel, but because we as gentiles are grafted into that, this prophecy was for all. And so I was like, That’s a great idea. Let’s work on that. And it was beautiful because you have an introduction, you have four chapters and a closure, and I really try to keep my books succinct. And when I got down there to start writing this book, he just pulled the women out of just the air, and I was like, You are brilliant, brilliant. I love that idea. Go God.
And I have never written about women. Even though I speak to women, I teach women, I’ve never written about women, and I’ve had a lot of people say, “Why don’t you write about women?” And I said, “When God lays that in front of me and shows me where we’re gonna go with that, I certainly will.” There’s a lot of great women. There’s Deborah and there’s Esther and there’s Ruth, and these women, they don’t have books written about them. They don’t have great stories written about them. And he just married, beautifully united, these titles with these women, and I just had the best time with him because it shows, to me, this demonstrates his great love for women in a culture that did not value them.
And there’s so many women today, even though women have… I’m not a women’s libber. I’m gonna tell you. I want my man to open my door, and I don’t mind him buying my food, and if he wants to wash my clothes, that’s great also. But in a culture where there are so many women that don’t feel valued, kind of going back to what we just said, he values women in a time where they weren’t valued. He recognizes women they weren’t recognized.
You think of Mary and Martha and the love that Mary had for Jesus. Women weren’t allowed to read the Scriptures. They weren’t allowed to be exposed to any of the teaching of Scripture, but somehow Mary had the love for Jesus, enough to sit down and listen to his teachings. And Jesus, of all the places he could have gone, he went there for dinner. They had opened their homes to him before. He felt welcome there. I mean, don’t you love it when you can call a friend and “I gotta get over there. I’ve done this transfiguration on the mountain. I’ve done this healing. I gotta just sit down for a minute and rest these dogs. My feet are hurting.” And that’s who he went to. He went to his friends, and I just love that.
But I also love Martha because I’m a Martha. I’m a doer, I’m a shaker, and I can hear her in there just grumbling going, I can’t believe she’s not in here helping me, and I’m gonna make my point. And she tries to make her point with Jesus. Do you all ever try to make your point with Jesus? I just can so see Mary with her hand on her hip talking to Jesus, and Jesus says, “Oh, but Mary has chosen better.” He didn’t insult her by saying, “You’re doing the wrong things. She’s chosen what is better, and it’s okay.” And in that moment, he was saying, “It’s okay that you’re the way you are. It’s okay that you’re busy like that, but this is what’s better for you.”
And just the fact that two of the women, we don’t even know their names, right? But God found value in them. He didn’t think we needed to know their names, and I love that because my favorite Scripture verse in all of Scripture is from Deuteronomy, of all books of the Bible. In the NLT translation, it’s Deuteronomy 29:29, and it says, “The Lord our God has secrets known to no one, and we are not accountable for them. We are, however, accountable for what he reveals to us.” So I love that he keeps secrets, that he has secrets, and that sometimes we can journey with him for a really long time and he’ll open that door or open our eyes to that truth, and then sometimes he doesn’t. So we don’t know these women’s names.
And I love that whole part of him bringing those women and uniting the Old Testament and the New Testament because we don’t always do that. We don’t always line the two testaments up. We think we’re on this side of the cross and that didn’t count. In fact, I just heard a pastor preach a message, and he said that if you are a believer and you have counted on all the promises that the Lord wrote out, God wrote out, in the Old Testament, just let those go. And I was like, Alright, where are you going with this, pastor? I hope you’re gonna make a really good point here. He said because we have a better promise of the New Testament. He didn’t discount the two, but the better promise is that New Testament.
But I do, I love the Old Testament and the New Testament, and these women, I hope I’ve done them well. I hope I have represented their stories well because they certainly had one, great ones, to tell.
Andrew: A lot of what you’re expressing has so much counterculture in it, which is really a wonderful energy to come up against. When we go with the flow so often our days, when we don’t take time to pause, to reflect, to weigh our hearts out before God, I think it’s easy to get caught up in the flow of things. And yet when we pause with Scripture and when we learn the ways of Jesus, it often has a way of pressing up against what is the norm, so even the fact that he felt safe and secure in the company of women in the time that he lived is, in its own way, hallmarking women. And even in a time when Christianity is sometimes discounted for its potency, maybe just is seen as one more world religion, I think in a world where women are still not seen, to understand that Jesus, the center of the religion we subscribe to and the person who we disciple after, is consistently…
Patsy: Compassionate
Andrew: Yes. And not only highlighting women but actually uplifting, raising them to places of leadership in saying these are women to listen to as well.
Leading women, teaching women, now writing about women of the Bible, do you ever feel unseen?
Wendy: I really don’t. I really don’t. And I think that’s one of the struggles that I have as a woman. I want to try to say this as kindly as possible and I guess as PC as possible. It’s hard for me to identify with women who don’t feel seen because I’ve never felt unseen. I’m not discounting that feeling and how they feel about…
Andrew: The believability of that.
Wendy: Yeah, the believability of that. Thank you. You filled in my blank there.
I’ve not ever felt that way. Like I said, my goals were really simple in life, and it wasn’t like, Well, I’m only gonna accomplish these things, and I’m not expecting much from myself, so I’m just gonna be a wife, a mother, and a teacher. It wasn’t like that at all. It was like these are the things that I wanted out of life. They were very simple, and I was blessed with them. They are my greatest blessings. And like I said, I grew up with Ward and June Cleaver. Not everybody was raised the way I was, I guess I want to say. Not everybody had the experience and has the life that I had, and I don’t take that for granted at all. But I’ve never felt unseen. In fact, I really kind of like to blend in, which is so counter to what I do. I’m an introvert.
I was attending a conference where I was there to learn, and I was so overwhelmed. I called my husband, and I said, “You know when we were young and we want to church camp and we were so excited to get our place on the bus, and the buses pulled out, and we got to camp and it was Sunday, and then Monday, we woke up at camp, and we were still excited but we wanted to go home? That’s where I am right now.” I’m a simple person. I don’t if that answers your question, and I don’t really…
Patsy: We couldn’t be more different. I’m so complex. I have often felt unseen and overseen because I gotta go from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Wendy: Tell me how you’ve felt unseen. I would love to hear that.
Patsy: It was unfortunate that my tendency was to evaluate my worth according to how other people were treated.
Wendy: Okay, I can identify with that statement, but I would not have aligned it with the word unseen. Thank you for unpacking that.
Patsy: Well, what happens then is I would feel if their treatment appeared to me to be superior, it would be like an erase stick of my value. Well, she is seen and valued, and they have proven it in these ways. Therefore, I am unseen and not valued. And I would take that very personally, and so I allowed things to splinter me that were unnecessary and to erase me because I didn’t have a clear understanding, which is why I love that you teach about Jesus everlasting through the Scripture because it was the Scripture that began to counsel me and defend me, even against myself as you so wisely said.
Wendy: Yes, I love that. So I might need to backtrack on my answer because I have felt that way, because I have judged myself against the accomplishments of others. So yeah, can we edit that part out, Andrew?
Andrew: Well, no, I think to see the conversation.
Wendy: The aha of that is great. I love that.
Andrew: And to see the community. You two just exampled the importance of community because different personalities will interact in different ways, but it helps to see the common denominator of all of our insecurities, our desire or need to identify with Christ before A, B, and C, which you have talked throughout this whole conversation about identifying with Christ. I think even for women to… I don’t want to speak into this; this is just my observation. But for women to pause and to seek identity with Christ can be really important in a very comparative world and among very comparative people.
Wendy: Wouldn’t it be a beautiful thing if we, as adults, could really get these right and start raising a generation with these truths to be part of their spiritual DNA, and we would have such a different world to live in and to grow older in, as each day passes in my life.
Patsy: I want to talk for a second about community because you brought up the name Beth Moore and her Bible studies, and you brought up that Lysa TerKeurst had taught you something really important. I think it is imperative for women to have strong women around them, whether it’s what they’re reading, what they’re studying, or conversations in person, that all that nurtures the heart of a woman so she doesn’t have to be so susceptible to comparison. She finds out it is the norm, and in finding that out, she learns how to safeguard herself against it through his counsel.
“It is imperative for women to have strong women around them.”
Wendy: Absolutely, absolutely.
Andrew: That’s beautiful. I would say, I’ll make this statement as the lone man in the conversation, that everyday should be International Women’s Day.
Wendy: Wow, what a great idea.
Andrew: I’m behind it. I’m fully behind it.
Thank you on the behalf of all of us — it’s not just women — for the way you speak into women’s lives because women influence the entire world in every segment of the world, and so by your influence, it’s making a huge difference in the way we interact.
Wendy: I hope so. I hope so.
Patsy: And thank you for dipping your pen into the ink of your heart in writing Jesus Everlasting and helping us to lean on him to be our Counselor, our Defender, our Father, and our Friend.
Wendy: Well, it was a privilege to sit down and talk to you both. It really was. Thank you for having me.
Patsy: Bridges is produced by my co-host, Andrew Greer.
Andrew: And co-produced by my co-host, Patsy Clairmont. Our podcast is recorded by Jesse Phillips.
Patsy: And sometimes my son, Jason Clairmont.
Andrew: At the Arcade in Franklin, Tennessee. Jesse Phillips is also our editor and mixes our show. And our theme music is written by Kyle Buchanan and yours truly, and all of the instruments of the music were played by Kyle Buchanan at Aries Lounge in Spring Hill, Tennessee. Our transcripts are provided by Rachel Worsham. Thanks, Rachel, for all your work.
Patsy: If you like what you’ve been listening to, you can help us out by leaving a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to our show.
Andrew: For more information about Patsy, myself, or to read transcripts and to listen to more episodes, go to bridgesshow.com.
Patsy: Catch you next time.